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Proz与其它论坛的不同
Thread poster: dd dd

dd dd
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就翻译问题而言 Oct 23, 2008

也许因为你不是做法律翻译的,所以你不觉得civil ruling和civil ruling paper的差别有多大。

就象如果是“声明和保证”,你也许会觉得“Representations and Warrities”和“Statements and Promises”会差不多。

或者,如果是“证人”,也许你会觉得说成witness或是witness person也都差不多。

但对我和其他以认真的态度对待自己工作的法律翻译来说,这个差别非常大。<
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也许因为你不是做法律翻译的,所以你不觉得civil ruling和civil ruling paper的差别有多大。

就象如果是“声明和保证”,你也许会觉得“Representations and Warrities”和“Statements and Promises”会差不多。

或者,如果是“证人”,也许你会觉得说成witness或是witness person也都差不多。

但对我和其他以认真的态度对待自己工作的法律翻译来说,这个差别非常大。

另外你提到另一问answer后来又更正了,但她只说civil ruling用在标题中可能更合适,但实际上是无论用在哪里都只能是civil ruling,没有civil ruling paper. 你在google里查一下,除了不到30个中国网站用civil ruling paper外,几乎没有一家外国网站用这个词。

我说的那个Proz规则的漏洞没针对任何人,只是提出存在这种可能。

我不想被视为一个troublemaker,就向你前面一个帖子说的-“如果你回答的问题足够多,你会发现,总得来讲,结果还是公正的。”,所以我也不想在这个问题上再争执下去了。
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Shouguang Cao
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架如是何掐起来的。 Oct 23, 2008

在一个高楼吵架贴里,我曾回贴说没看明白架是如何吵起来的。

现在看来我有些明白了:

第一种:像Laura这样的贴子(Sorry Laura)这样可能引起吵架:不满-->犯规疑问-->另一人认为自己被怀疑犯规-->吵架
第二种就是ysun这样的,yusun说“把害群之马赶走”--->被理解成“我们里面有害群之马”--->“你是说我呢!”-->吵架


我认为
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在一个高楼吵架贴里,我曾回贴说没看明白架是如何吵起来的。

现在看来我有些明白了:

第一种:像Laura这样的贴子(Sorry Laura)这样可能引起吵架:不满-->犯规疑问-->另一人认为自己被怀疑犯规-->吵架
第二种就是ysun这样的,yusun说“把害群之马赶走”--->被理解成“我们里面有害群之马”--->“你是说我呢!”-->吵架


我认为大家发贴时还是以“无罪推断”为基础,如果你有疑问,最好去提交一个票子,而不是在论坛上说出自已涉及到这里的成员的正直性的疑虑和怀疑。


ysun wrote:



... at large wrote:

Dear ysun

I find your post highly offensive to me personally as it clearly refers to a previous incident in another thread and by referring to “someone who jumped out to accuse the moderator of being unfair”, you are clearly referring to persons that include me.

If you are not, then I challenge you to name names so that I can be clear you are not referring to me.

What I did in the other thread is on public record. If that offends you, you have the right to lodge support tickets. I also reserve my rights to take this matter further.

It is high time we all put a stop to this kind of cyber-bullying.


ysun wrote:

这就是为什么必须把害群之马赶走的道理。依我看,几年来论坛管理得蛮公正。不过,再公正也总会有个别人说不公正。这不足为怪。就让他们去说好了。有的人对于“那些有意的挑衅和人身攻击”似乎视而不见,甚至表示支持,可管理员一出面,就马上把矛头指向管理员,难道这就是公正吗?




[Edited at 2008-10-22 21:35]
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dd dd
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我不再 就这个问题发帖了 Oct 23, 2008

大家都不要再争论了。

[Edited at 2008-10-23 12:34]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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Precedents Oct 23, 2008

http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/85201-an_apology:_reflection_on_my_faults-page2.html#682072

I'm personally convinced that we have 3 excellent moderators for the Chinese and English language pair, based on my roughly 3 and a half years of visiting the ProZ.com site. I fully support their hard work and dedication to the community.
... See more
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/85201-an_apology:_reflection_on_my_faults-page2.html#682072

I'm personally convinced that we have 3 excellent moderators for the Chinese and English language pair, based on my roughly 3 and a half years of visiting the ProZ.com site. I fully support their hard work and dedication to the community.

Every now and then, my posts have been hidden as a result of the unintentional infraction of certain forum rules. Upon these rare occasions, I've always trusted the moderator's judgment, abided by the moderator's decisions, assumed my own responsibility, and when necessary, publically apologized in the forum.

I think we can all see the ridiculousness of body slamming a referee in the Olympics. I wonder if there aren't some similarities in being overly critical of our moderators when they are only carrying out their duty?



[Edited at 2008-10-23 23:31]
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ysun  Identity Verified
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避免吵架的艺术 Oct 24, 2008

当你听到别人说“你是说我呢!”的时候,如果你 一笑了之,那就吵不起来了。;)

Dallas Cao wrote:

在一个高楼吵架贴里,我曾回贴说没看明白架是如何吵起来的。

现在看来我有些明白了:

第一种:像Laura这样的贴子(Sorry Laura)这样可能引起吵架:不满-->犯规疑问-->另一人认为自己被怀疑犯规-->吵架
第二种就是ysun这样的,yusun说“把害群之马赶走”--->被理解成“我们里面有害群之马”--->“你是说我呢!”-->吵架


我认为大家发贴时还是以“无罪推断”为基础,如果你有疑问,最好去提交一个票子,而不是在论坛上说出自已涉及到这里的成员的正直性的疑虑和怀疑。


ysun wrote:



... at large wrote:

Dear ysun

I find your post highly offensive to me personally as it clearly refers to a previous incident in another thread and by referring to “someone who jumped out to accuse the moderator of being unfair”, you are clearly referring to persons that include me.

If you are not, then I challenge you to name names so that I can be clear you are not referring to me.

What I did in the other thread is on public record. If that offends you, you have the right to lodge support tickets. I also reserve my rights to take this matter further.

It is high time we all put a stop to this kind of cyber-bullying.


ysun wrote:

这就是为什么必须把害群之马赶走的道理。依我看,几年来论坛管理得蛮公正。不过,再公正也总会有个别人说不公正。这不足为怪。就让他们去说好了。有的人对于“那些有意的挑衅和人身攻击”似乎视而不见,甚至表示支持,可管理员一出面,就马上把矛头指向管理员,难道这就是公正吗?




[Edited at 2008-10-22 21:35]


 

ysun  Identity Verified
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不该我们操心的就别操心 Oct 24, 2008

Dallas,

你说的“确定谁是“害群之马”则应由全论坛活跃人员全票通过,或者由可广泛代表所有活跃人员的一个代表团全数通过才合理。”我认为既不现实,也没必要。据我所知,判定某匹马是“害群之马”,决定把它赶走,是超出moderator的权限的,只有更高的管理阶层才有权做出如此决定。将某马“赶走”确实是一个非常严重的处分。上层若不经过全面考察、深思
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Dallas,

你说的“确定谁是“害群之马”则应由全论坛活跃人员全票通过,或者由可广泛代表所有活跃人员的一个代表团全数通过才合理。”我认为既不现实,也没必要。据我所知,判定某匹马是“害群之马”,决定把它赶走,是超出moderator的权限的,只有更高的管理阶层才有权做出如此决定。将某马“赶走”确实是一个非常严重的处分。上层若不经过全面考察、深思熟虑,是不会做出这种决定的。这里不是联合国,不象联合国那样,在对某成员国进行制裁时还需要召开全体会议、投票决定。

我们一般会员不了解全面情况,最好还是少管闲事。去年某会员因与他人在论坛上发生冲突时犯规而受处分。我和另一位会员觉得该处分太重,并觉得冲突另一方也有错,于是就联名递交了一份support ticket。我还屡次给一位moderator打电话,要求再给那位犯错误的会员一次机会,每次电话都长达两、三小时(我十分感谢他非常耐心地听我唠叨)。但没想到那位会员在他处分被解除后,并未吸取教训,反而继续犯类似错误,同时还反诬我和那位与我联名上书的会员是搞小集团,说我们联名递交该support ticket是另有所图。结果搞得我啼笑皆非,只好靠复习伊索寓言经典故事来散心解闷。:D

Dallas Cao wrote:

A horse! I need a horse! My kingdom for a horse!

马在哪呢?呵呵。如kevin所说,从文法上看,ysun的“害群之马”并非特指某人,仅是为论坛管理提了一个建议。但我认为把某马赶走这种做法并非明智之举。

首先,我想问下到底谁有权力把马“赶走”呢?网站是公共领域,我想有将某马“赶走”权力的不会是版主,甚至也不是网站的创始人。

其次,判断某马为“害群之马”的标准在哪里?又由谁来制定?

再次,标准出来之后,又由谁来判断某马是害群之马?将某马“赶走”似乎是一个非常严重的处分,确定谁是“害群之马”则应由全论坛活跃人员全票通过,或者由可广泛代表所有活跃人员的一个代表团全数通过才合理。



[Edited at 2008-10-23 08:59]
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Shouguang Cao
China
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我很无知 Oct 24, 2008

ysun,

谢谢你的解释。不过我对前人的恩愿了解不多,也没太多兴趣。

跑题贴是我先发的。自我到中文论坛之后,就慢慢感觉到这里有一种诡异的味道,就像一个办公室里,因为有几个老员工有矛盾,结果搞坏了办公室的气氛和环境。

我后面两个贴的本意是,不考虑大家以前的恩怨,单就本贴来讲,我反对“害群之马”的这种提法,同时明确反对你有关将所谓的“害群之马”赶走的建议。这样的提法我认为对大家都很不公平。就像一群在一起玩的孩子,其中一个说:我们中有小偷,结果会搞得每个人都惶惶不安。

同样,就本贴而言,我想 at large 虽并没有继续争辩,但我想他心中必不平静。 容我再强调一次,不考虑以前的恩怨,就本贴而言,at large 似有过激,但就我的吵架路线图来看,波浪确是由“害群之马”这样的提法而引起。我反对这样在论坛上公开对网站成员的正直性提出质疑。


 

ysun  Identity Verified
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并非跑题 Oct 25, 2008

Dallas,

谢谢你的意见。不过“波浪确是由“害群之马”这样的提法而引起”的说法恐怕欠公正。你前面提到Proz.com“在平静的表面隐藏着各式各样的争斗和仇恨,发生在不同背景,位于不同地理位置,不同信仰(不是宗教信仰),不同论坛地位(新与新,新与老,老与老,官与民,官与官)的人之间”;chance又提到“有意的挑衅和人身攻击”,所以我才提出“害群之马
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Dallas,

谢谢你的意见。不过“波浪确是由“害群之马”这样的提法而引起”的说法恐怕欠公正。你前面提到Proz.com“在平静的表面隐藏着各式各样的争斗和仇恨,发生在不同背景,位于不同地理位置,不同信仰(不是宗教信仰),不同论坛地位(新与新,新与老,老与老,官与民,官与官)的人之间”;chance又提到“有意的挑衅和人身攻击”,所以我才提出“害群之马”的说法。但是,我并没有具体说明谁是“害群之马”,怎么是我引起了波浪呢?你说at large “心中必不平静”。如果确实如此,那绝不是我的问题,这是很明显的。正因为我相信大家的判断力,所以才在前面以“哈哈哈”了事,不作任何解释。

我上面提到我与另一位会员在去年出于与人为善的愿望,管了一些闲事,帮某个受处分的会员说了几句话,结果后来反而遭到此人的攻击。这并非是想要你卷入以前某些老会员之间的恩怨。我只是想以自己的切身经历说明,涉及管理阶层的决定,我们不一定了解全面情况,所以“不该我们操心的就别操心”。如果你也去看一看伊索寓言,也许对我的心情会有进一步理解。

Proz.com论坛上出现的一场场风波,其实质并非如你所说是某些老会员之间的恩怨,而是极个别人肆意违反网站规则,而且当moderators出面干预时,就把矛头指向moderators。他们力图要把此论坛变成一个他们想说什么就说什么的自由论坛。美其名曰“言论自由”,实际上是主张不受任何约束。而Proz.com论坛恰恰是一个受网站规则严格制约的论坛,并由那些volunteer moderators认真执行网站规则。这就是Proz与许多其它论坛的最大不同。(可见我们并未跑题。)

以下是site rules。其中提到为了执行规则,staff members 可以对某些犯规的会员发出黄牌警告、红牌警告直至termination。可见,我所谓的“害群之马”并非危言耸听。不过,我对这方面的讨论,不打算再继续深入。如果你有不同意见,我们可以私下交流,或者大家保留自己的意见。谢谢!

http://www.proz.com/rules

Enforcement

Staff members and moderators may take any of the following actions to enforce the above rules:
* contacting site users to call attention to specific rules
* refraining from approving (or removing/hiding) postings that violate a rule
* causing a message related to the rules to appear to certain users when they undertake certain actions
* suspending, temporarily or permanently, access to site features that have been used in violation of the rules.
* termination of profile or membership (staff only)

Termination

In rare cases of severe infraction, ProZ.com staff members may terminate a profile (and membership) with immediate effect. In most cases, however, ProZ.com uses a "yellow card/red card" policy, akin to yellow-card/red-card practice in the sport of football/soccer, for terminations.

Yellow and red cards are issued only by staff members. Rules are cited by number, and the date of the card is logged. The terms "yellow card" or "red card" are used explicitly; if an email is sent, the terms appear in the subject line.

A site user who has been issued a yellow card may continue to use the site (sometimes with certain restrictions), but is otherwise under notice that further infractions will lead to termination. A person whose profile has been terminated will not be readmitted to ProZ.com.

Outsourcers are subject to the site's Termination policy.

Clarification

For clarification regarding any of the above rules or rules enforcement, please submit a support re
Dallas Cao wrote:

ysun,

谢谢你的解释。不过我对前人的恩愿了解不多,也没太多兴趣。

跑题贴是我先发的。自我到中文论坛之后,就慢慢感觉到这里有一种诡异的味道,就像一个办公室里,因为有几个老员工有矛盾,结果搞坏了办公室的气氛和环境。

我后面两个贴的本意是,不考虑大家以前的恩怨,单就本贴来讲,我反对“害群之马”的这种提法,同时明确反对你有关将所谓的“害群之马”赶走的建议。这样的提法我认为对大家都很不公平。就像一群在一起玩的孩子,其中一个说:我们中有小偷,结果会搞得每个人都惶惶不安。

同样,就本贴而言,我想 at large 虽并没有继续争辩,但我想他心中必不平静。 容我再强调一次,不考虑以前的恩怨,就本贴而言,at large 似有过激,但就我的吵架路线图来看,波浪确是由“害群之马”这样的提法而引起。我反对这样在论坛上公开对网站成员的正直性提出质疑。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Forum and Site Rules Oct 25, 2008

Points very well made, Yueyin. Bravo!

Here you basically have to play by the rules. You abide by the rules and try to respect each other; it's quite simple, really.

You guys probably noticed me editing my posts all the time. Sometimes it's to correct my typos, sometimes it's to rephrase my words better; but most of the times, it is to make sure that what I say does not accidentally end up offending someone ...
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Points very well made, Yueyin. Bravo!

Here you basically have to play by the rules. You abide by the rules and try to respect each other; it's quite simple, really.

You guys probably noticed me editing my posts all the time. Sometimes it's to correct my typos, sometimes it's to rephrase my words better; but most of the times, it is to make sure that what I say does not accidentally end up offending someone



[Edited at 2008-10-26 13:30]
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Jason Ma  Identity Verified
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无题 Oct 25, 2008

记得有一次, 有个澳洲的译者(很遗憾他/她很久在每访问这个论坛了)公开质疑我的Kudoz选择,那个争论占了大半个网页,我们私下在email上有交流了十几个来回。最终我感觉她/他的说法更贴近原文,所以在译稿中用上了。当然,我无法将kudoz point收回。也许proz以后可以能推出新规定,避免Kudoz Points 成为一锤子买卖。其实其他译者、前辈们的质疑中得到的收获是非常非常大的。刘... See more
记得有一次, 有个澳洲的译者(很遗憾他/她很久在每访问这个论坛了)公开质疑我的Kudoz选择,那个争论占了大半个网页,我们私下在email上有交流了十几个来回。最终我感觉她/他的说法更贴近原文,所以在译稿中用上了。当然,我无法将kudoz point收回。也许proz以后可以能推出新规定,避免Kudoz Points 成为一锤子买卖。其实其他译者、前辈们的质疑中得到的收获是非常非常大的。刘妹妹,感兴趣看看下面的链接:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/management/2402504-change_the_contribution_date_from_the_default_of_current_date.html
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/management/2398271-defend_differentiate_the_core.html
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/management/2407412-divisional_functional_or_departmental.html
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/management/2401940-assign_to_multiple.html

Jason Ma wrote:

一般会把问题保持开放状态两三天,甚至更长时间,这样会有许多选择,甚至讨论。刘妹妹说的爷可能是初次提问的吧?我自己曾有过选择了答案并给Kudoz分,后来又发现其他译者的回答更确切地情况,然后催moderator改过来。好像没改成。

Laura Liu wrote:

今天在Kudos上忙了一整天,有个深切的感受,就是这里问问题的是大爷...


[Edited at 2008-10-25 16:23]

[Edited at 2008-10-25 16:29]

[Edited at 2008-10-25 16:29]

[Edited at 2008-10-25 16:30]

[Edited at 2008-10-25 16:39]
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ysun  Identity Verified
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Totally agree Oct 26, 2008

Steve,

I totally agree with you!
wherestip wrote:

http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/85201-an_apology:_reflection_on_my_faults-page2.html#682072

I'm personally convinced that we have 3 excellent moderators for the Chinese and English language pair, based on my roughly 3 and a half years of visiting the ProZ.com site. I fully support their hard work and dedication to the community.

Every now and then, my posts have been hidden as a result of the unintentional infraction of certain forum rules. Upon these rare occasions, I've always trusted the moderator's judgment, abided by the moderator's decisions, assumed my own responsibility, and when necessary, publically apologized in the forum.

I think we can all see the ridiculousness of body slamming a referee in the Olympics. I wonder if there aren't some similarities in being overly critical of our moderators when they are only carrying out their duty?



[Edited at 2008-10-23 23:31]


 

dd dd
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TOPIC STARTER
这位ha先生/女士好执著啊,真让人敬佩,每次都是长篇大论的。 Oct 26, 2008

Jason Ma wrote:

记得有一次, 有个澳洲的译者(很遗憾他/她很久在每访问这个论坛了)公开质疑我的Kudoz选择,那个争论占了大半个网页,我们私下在email上有交流了十几个来回。最终我感觉她/他的说法更贴近原文,所以在译稿中用上了。当然,我无法将kudoz point收回。也许proz以后可以能推出新规定,避免Kudoz Points 成为一锤子买卖。



那些回答都太长了,容我有时间慢慢细看。


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 10:00
English to Chinese
+ ...
你说的有一定道理 Nov 18, 2008

Laura Liu wrote:

我倒是觉得...
能吵架的人都是思维活跃的人,哈哈。

所以,也许有人会觉得...
如果能吵架的人走了,Proz.com 就不活跃了,哈哈。:D


 
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