| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | 80% of translators use Trados? Thread poster: Jennifer Forbes
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| Misguided CAT rage | Feb 19, 2013 |
I think using a CAT tool is as much a part of a translator's competence these days as the capability to correctly understand complex text (and it worries me somewhat that this whole thread was spawned by a misinterpretation of a fairly simple advertisement).
| | | | Claudia Cherici 
Italy
Local time: 19:36
Member (2010)
English to Italian
+ ...
"but there is something more in this topic as you may see"
of course I do Radian, I wrote in my post that I am not aware of percentages and that I just wanted to say something against the general "Trados?? Far be it from me!" climate in this forum
| | | | Radian Yazynin
Local time: 20:36
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Eh... "clever tool" can be applied to almost any such tool, but "much more complete" goes the wrong way here.
[Edited at 2013-02-19 06:59 GMT]
| | | | Nikita Kobrin
Lithuania
Local time: 20:36
Member (2010)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Why I don't like Trado$ | Feb 19, 2013 |
Claudia Cherici wrote:
I will not take part in the "knock down Trados" game. It's not the Holy Graal but it's a useful, clever tool to use in our profession, much more complete and versatile than other similar tools
Much more complete and versatile than other similar tools? No, that's not true I think. It was like that before (perhaps 3-5 years ago) but not any more...
Claudia Cherici wrote:
I will not take part in the "knock down Trados" game.
Nobody is going to force you doing that, Claudia, while I am not going to conceal that I don't like Trado$. Why? I can explain. There are several reasons:
1. Daunting learning curve. I've tried several times to master Trado$, I've spent many days for that and still I don't feel myself confident working with this program... On the second day of learning Deja Vu I could work with it. The same I can say about MemoQ. Both programs have well-written help files (manuals). In addition MemoQ team offers superb technical support and regularly organises FREE learning webinars.
2. Excessive commercialism. Trado$ is the most expensive of all the tools of this kind. The only reason for Trado$ to be the most famous and widespread CAT tool is their highly aggressive promotion campaign. It seems they try to make money on absolutely everything, even on their own badly written manuals: it forces program users to spend quite a lot for various learning courses and paid webinars. That's why I always write 'Trado$' with a dollar sign instead of 's'...
4. Indefatigable promotion of fuzzy matches and repetitions discounts idea. Those discounts are often demanded nowadays by many agencies and we all know that sometimes those demands are quite absurd. We have to spend a lot in terms of money and learning time for CAT tools, we offer more consistent translations and after that we are forced to offer discounts which makes the usage of CAT tools profitable mostly for agencies and not for freelances. Those discounts are often called 'Trado$ discounts' and it is quite explainable: it was Trado$ team who many years has been promoting these ideas among agencies. It was their strategy to be agencies-oriented: they understood that it would be difficult to convince freelance translators to buy their overpriced tool. It was much easier to entice agencies with possible discounts so that they started to force freelancers to buy and use Trado$. And they have succeeded I should say: now we quite often see in job ads - 'Trado$ is a must' or something similar...
[Edited at 2013-02-19 15:14 GMT]
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Trisha F
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
English to Spanish
+ ...
| There is no 'knock down' game | Feb 19, 2013 |
Claudia Cherici wrote:
I do not understand why fellow translators seem to take special pride in saying they never use it and even piling abuse on it
There are plenty of translators who use it or have used it at some point, including myself. It can be a very effective tool. This discussion is about TRADOS' claims ("80% of translators use TRADOS"). Are they reasonable or merely a sweeping generalisation to increase sales? If you have been following it you might have read very interesting and informed opinions already. Whether translators who don't use TRADOS "take pride" in giving it a miss is difficult to tell. I didn't get that general impression from the comments in this thread. Some people may be proud of being foreign to CAT tools perhaps but that's not the point really.
Claudia Cherici wrote:
I will not take part in the "knock down Trados" game. It's not the Holy Graal but it's a useful, clever tool to use in our profession, much more complete and versatile than other similar tools
Just wanted to make my point...
There is no game and I hardly think anyone is interested in slagging off TRADOS here. This is a discussion, therefore you'll find prettyvaried views. If you think TRADOS is great that's fine but there's no need to disqualify the opinions of other people. If translators can't express their honest views on CAT tools in a translator forum then there's something amiss.
My main objections regarding TRADOS are very similar to Nikita's:
Nikita Kobrin wrote:
4. Indefatigable promotion of fuzzy matches and repetitions discounts idea. Those discounts are often demanded nowadays by many agencies and we all know that sometimes those demands are quite absurd. We have to spend a lot in terms of money and learning time for CAT tools, we offer more consistent translations and after that we are forced to offer discounts which makes the usage of CAT tools profitable mostly for agencies and not for freelances. Those discounts are often called 'Trado$ discounts' and it is quite explainable: it was Trado$ team who many years has been promoting these ideas among agencies. It was their strategy to be agencies-oriented: they understood that it would be difficult to convince freelance translators to buy their overpriced tool. It was much easier to entice agencies with possible discounts so that they started to force freelancers to buy and use Trado$. And they have succeeded I should say: now we quite often see in job ads - 'Trado$ is a must' or something similar...
Any well-educated, professional translator would resent this to some degree. You are an expert, you may have already spent quite a lot of money to go to a good university and feel a strong passion for language so why should your work be devalued by a software developer who charges you a lot for their product in the first place? Many professionals use software to do their job, I have never heard of a design software developer claiming that projects should be cheaper because designers don't need to draw by hand with their tool.
[Edited at 2013-02-19 16:08 GMT]
| | | | | Some comments | Feb 19, 2013 |
Hello Nik,
unfortunately, your post includes some common myths about SDL Trados:
1. Daunting learning curve. I've tried several times to master Trado$, I've spent many days for that and still I don't feel myself confident working with this program... On the second day of learning Deja Vu I could work with it.
This is very subjective. I was up and running with Studio after no more than three hours. I bought DVX2 several months ago and I'm still trying to figure out how to go about SQL. I'd be totally clueless in DVX2 without Selcuk's kind help, while I accomplish the same tasks with a few clicks in Studio. DVX has many advantages, but IMO, fast learning curve is not one of them. But again, this is my opinion and other users may feel exactly the other way round.
Both programs have well-written help files (manuals). In addition MemoQ team offers superb technical support and regularly organises FREE learning webinars.
Same goes for Studio, perhaps with the exception of free webinars. AFAIK, the support included in MQ Translator Pro license is limited to four hours and is valid for one year.
2. Excessive commercialism. Trado$ is the most expensive of all the tools of this kind.
This is one of the most widespread myths. I think I demonstrated in a different forum that Star Transit and even MemoQ are more expensive than Studio, at least on some markets.
To give a few facts and figures from my country (all prices including VAT):
SDL Trados Studio 2011 Plus (2 activations; does not include AS Creator): € 404 (CZK 10,099)
MemoQ: € 787
DVX2 (2 activations): € 610
WordFast Pro: € 200 (€ 400 on "developed" markets)
Star Transit (including optional filters that are included as standard in other CATs): € 2,720
It seems they try to make money on absolutely everything, even on their own badly written manuals: it forces program users to spend quite a lot for various learning courses and paid webinars. That's why I always write 'Trado$' with a dollar sign instead of 's'...
Dunno; never took a seminar/webinar and yet I'm fully certified. But again, in my country seminars are available at about 20 euros.
4. Indefatigable promotion of fuzzy matches and repetitions discounts idea. Those discounts are often demanded nowadays by many agencies and we all know that sometimes those demands are quite absurd. We have to spend a lot in terms of money and learning time for CAT tools, we offer more consistent translations and after that we are forced to offer discounts which makes the usage of CAT tools profitable mostly for agencies and not for freelances. Those discounts are often called 'Trado$ discounts' and it is quite explainable: it was Trado$ team who many years has been promoting these ideas among agencies.
Yes, Trados (i.e. the old German company) came up with this (mis)concept, which was quickly adopted by other CAT tool developers.
It was their strategy to be agencies-oriented: they understood that it would be difficult to convince freelance translators to buy their overpriced tool. It was much easier to entice agencies with possible discounts so that they started to force freelancers to buy and use Trado$.
And I remember that in those times, you would simply borrow a license from agencies for free. But it's different today:
- You can have Studio Starter, which allows you e.g. to work on project packages prepared for you by an agency, at € 99/year. The project package author needs a Pro license.
- You can use MemoQ4Free to work on server-based projects, but it's the agency who needs to pay for your temporary license.
- You can have StarTransit for € 200/year which allows you to work on project packages prepared for you by an agency. The project package author needs a Pro license.
- You can use DVX2 editor to work on project packages prepared for you by an agency. The project package author needs to have a Workgroup license.
Many of the things that you mentioned used to be perfectly valid in the past, but nowadays things are not as black or white as it may seem at the first sight.
[Upraveno: 2013-02-19 16:11 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:36
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Some thoughts | Feb 19, 2013 |
Stanislav Pokorny wrote: Nik wrote:
Daunting learning curve. I've tried several times to master Trados. ... On the second day of learning Deja Vu I could work with it. This is very subjective. I was up and running with Studio after no more than three hours.
Yes, I think the learning curve is more different for different people, and not so much for different tools. I know that some tools are very complex or complicated whereas others are simpler and quicker to use, but it is difficult to peg down "learning curve". I suspect that tools with the greatest learning curve are the ones that are most different from the tool you're used to.
Neither DVX nor MemoQ are particularly easy tools to learn (in my opinion, since I have tried on more than one occassion to do so, though probably not hard enough).
Excessive commercialism. Trados is the most expensive of all the tools of this kind. This is one of the most widespread myths. I think I demonstrated in a different forum that Star Transit and even MemoQ are more expensive than Studio, at least on some markets.
Even if Trados were more expensive than any other tool, that is hardly a reason to complain. No-one is forcing you to buy Trados. They are free to set a price that they believe their product is worth and that they think will cover their development costs.
Indefatigable promotion of fuzzy matches and repetitions discounts idea. Those discounts are often demanded nowadays by many agencies and we all know that sometimes those demands are quite absurd. We have to spend a lot in terms of money and learning time for CAT tools, we offer more consistent translations and after that we are forced to offer discounts which makes the usage of CAT tools profitable mostly for agencies and not for freelances. Yes, Trados came up with this (mis)concept, which was quickly adopted by other CAT tool developers.
Well, in theory the idea is sound. High fuzzy matches theoretically result in quicker translations, and why not pass on some of the saving to the client?
If a client or agency makes unrealistic demands about payment for fuzzy matches, then the fault lies with the unreasonable agency and not with the concept of fuzzy matches.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 19:36
Italian to English
In memoriam | Theory and practice | Feb 19, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
Well, in theory the idea is sound. High fuzzy matches theoretically result in quicker translations, and why not pass on some of the saving to the client?
Obviously, because you want to keep it for yourself 
I use Trados for all of my translations - as I have for almost two decades - but work exclusively for direct customers. Offering discounts for fuzzy matches is something I would not even contemplate. For a start, it would be difficult to explain to the average winery what the heck a "fuzzy match" is!
With my established customers, I use the Trados analysis to filter out 100% matches, for which I do not charge. Since many of my customers send me basically similar documents once or twice a year, this means I can get the job out the door quickly without overcharging for a fairly simple operation.
But I decide how - and whether - to apply a discount.
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| Just one more comment | Feb 20, 2013 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Indefatigable promotion of fuzzy matches and repetitions discounts idea. Those discounts are often demanded nowadays by many agencies and we all know that sometimes those demands are quite absurd. We have to spend a lot in terms of money and learning time for CAT tools, we offer more consistent translations and after that we are forced to offer discounts which makes the usage of CAT tools profitable mostly for agencies and not for freelances. Yes, Trados came up with this (mis)concept, which was quickly adopted by other CAT tool developers. Well, in theory the idea is sound. High fuzzy matches theoretically result in quicker translations, and why not pass on some of the saving to the client?
Hello Samuel,
I am basically with you on this one. The only problem is the amount of work involved in editing a high fuzzy match in different languages. That said, there can't be a universal CAT breakdown scheme, but there should be different schemes for different target languages.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Hebrew to English
| It has nothing to do with competence | Feb 20, 2013 |
Tntranslations wrote:
I think using a CAT tool is as much a part of a translator's competence these days as the capability to correctly understand complex text (and it worries me somewhat that this whole thread was spawned by a misinterpretation of a fairly simple advertisement).
An incompetent translator does not become more competent by getting him/herself a CAT tool. I'm willing to concede that a CAT tool carries a few benefits but I don't think you can say it impacts one's competence. That's something you should have anyway and if you don't have it, a CAT tool ain't gonna help you there.
I certainly wouldn't equate it with the ability to "correctly understand complex text", which would surely be an ESSENTIAL pre-requisite for someone to be able to translate or at least to be able to produce a decent translation. A CAT tool is not that.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 19:36
French to English
with you Ty but CAT tools can help you deliver more quickly and maintain consistency which is also an essential requirement.
I just landed a huge translation simply on deadline. A friend was offered it, and she is much better qualified to do it given her past work experience, but she has a day job and couldn't face weeks of cutting seriously into her leisure and sleep, so I took over for her.
(I'm not using a CAT tool for it though, I just happen to be a professional ... See more with you Ty but CAT tools can help you deliver more quickly and maintain consistency which is also an essential requirement.
I just landed a huge translation simply on deadline. A friend was offered it, and she is much better qualified to do it given her past work experience, but she has a day job and couldn't face weeks of cutting seriously into her leisure and sleep, so I took over for her.
(I'm not using a CAT tool for it though, I just happen to be a professional translator and it's my job to fit it in.) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 19:36
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
Ty Kendall wrote:
An incompetent translator does not become more competent by getting him/herself a CAT tool. I'm willing to concede that a CAT tool carries a few benefits but I don't think you can say it impacts one's competence. That's something you should have anyway and if you don't have it, a CAT tool ain't gonna help you there.
I believe "part of competence" was meant as "one more skill a translator should have at his disposal", not "part of ability to translate".
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Hebrew to English
| Tool not a skill | Feb 20, 2013 |
Jabberwock wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
An incompetent translator does not become more competent by getting him/herself a CAT tool. I'm willing to concede that a CAT tool carries a few benefits but I don't think you can say it impacts one's competence. That's something you should have anyway and if you don't have it, a CAT tool ain't gonna help you there.
I believe "part of competence" was meant as "one more skill a translator should have at his disposal", not "part of ability to translate".
I would have agreed with you if you'd said "one more tool a translator should have at his disposal".
| | | | | Tools and skills | Feb 20, 2013 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
I would have agreed with you if you'd said "one more tool a translator should have at his disposal".
And you need certain skills to handle the tool.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:36
Hebrew to English
| Agreed BUT.... | Feb 20, 2013 |
Stanislav Pokorny wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
I would have agreed with you if you'd said "one more tool a translator should have at his disposal". And you need certain skills to handle the tool.
The skill needed to find your feet with Trados et al. isn't quite the same as linguistic skill needed for actual translation. I'm simply highlighting that calling a CAT tool a "skill" is in itself a bit misguided - the ability to use it is a skill - the actual thing is merely a tool, only as effective as the person wielding it.
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