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Where to start for a CAT tool ?
Thread poster: Zeki Güler
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:16
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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it is unacceptable to expect a beginner to be able to deal with a tag forest Dec 22, 2012

esperantisto wrote:

Michael Beijer wrote:

Can OmegaT reliably and easily translate extremely large PPTX and/or .docx files with very complex formatting


Yes, OmegaT can do it. But expect a tag forest as a result of complex formatting.


That is what I was talking about. A beginner should just be able to get to work, and since so many of the files I am asked to translate are complex Microsoft Word files (and I am assuming I am not the only one) I think OmegaT is not really up to the task of dealing with mainstream file formats adequately.

Michael

[Edited at 2012-12-22 13:04 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-12-23 21:15 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
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English to Afrikaans
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@Michael, regarding tag soup Dec 22, 2012

Michael Beijer wrote:
esperantisto wrote:
Michael Beijer wrote:
Can OmegaT reliably and easily translate extremely large PPTX and/or .docx files with very complex formatting

Yes, OmegaT can do it. But expect a tag forest as a result of complex formatting.

That is what I was talking about. A beginner should just be able to get to work...


Well, tag soup to a greater or lesser degree will be present in all CAT tools that use tagged intermediary format, so if a beginner doesn't know how to deal with tags, he'll struggle with all of those tools. Even simple files can produce lots of tags, if there are a lot of format changes or uncommon characters in them.

As for dealing with tags, I regularly see translations done by what I can only guess are beginners, who don't know how to properly deal with tags in e.g. TTX and TXML, and both of those are supposed to be "easy" on the tags. Then I (as proofreader) have to fix the tag mess.

A distinct disadvantage of OmegaT with regard to tags is the fact that tags are not placeables in OmegaT, so you have to either copy them by hand or type them by hand. This does not make OmegaT more difficult to use but it does make it more cumbersome, compared to other tools. That said, I often see translations in other formats in which translators had obviously tried to type tags by hand anyway (and it doesn't always work).

This is why I said previously -- we can talk hypothetically about complex formats, but a fair comparison would involve actually opening such a complex file or files in the various tools to see what they truly look like.


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
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@Samuel: Dec 22, 2012

Fair enough. So I just downloaded the latest version of OmegaT and tried importing the .docx I am working on in memoQ at the moment. However, the increased amount of tags in OmegaT (none present in memoQ), the fact that OmegaT is rather heavy on my computer compared to memoQ (as with CafeTran, and seemingly all Java programs, my fans start speeding up; the same problem with Firefox, incidentally), and the fact that I don't find the UI very user-friendly made me give up immediately. Mind you, I <... See more
Fair enough. So I just downloaded the latest version of OmegaT and tried importing the .docx I am working on in memoQ at the moment. However, the increased amount of tags in OmegaT (none present in memoQ), the fact that OmegaT is rather heavy on my computer compared to memoQ (as with CafeTran, and seemingly all Java programs, my fans start speeding up; the same problem with Firefox, incidentally), and the fact that I don't find the UI very user-friendly made me give up immediately. Mind you, I have been working exclusively with memoQ now for quite some time, and so have grown accustomed to it. Perhaps if I gave OmegaT a proper try it might grow on me. At present though I really can't imagine using it for real work.

Michael
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 23:16
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Compare with more than just MemoQ Dec 22, 2012

Michael Beijer wrote:
So I just downloaded the latest version of OmegaT and tried importing the .docx I am working on in memoQ at the moment. However, the increased amount of tags in OmegaT (none present in memoQ)...


It is my understanding that MemoQ is particularly good when dealing with unnecessary tags.

What would be interesting is not to see how OmegaT compares to MemoQ but how both of them compare to e.g. Wordfast Pro, TagEditor, Deja Vu and Trados 2009. Those four are all closed-source tools that are being sold for high prices, and that are all considered non-experimental.

Here is an example of the difference between e.g. MemoQ and Deja Vu with regard to tags:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj1TecgK20E


 
Meta Arkadia
Meta Arkadia
Local time: 05:16
English to Indonesian
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More theory, less brand names, please Dec 23, 2012

Michael Beijer wrote:
using it for real work.

You mention "real work" or "serious work" quite often on ProZ, Michael, and I'm glad you have found the perfect solution for it. Unfortunately, it involves components I wouldn't want to touch, but then again, I haven't done any serious work the last twenty years. I suggest you elaborate on it in another topic.

In another topic, because this one seems to evolve into a "mine is bigger than yours" (mine is) thing. And the question deserves better, far better actually. It's worth an article, if not a booklet.

I bought my first CAT tool in 1997 (or 1998, I can look it up if I need to). In contrast whith what I'm advocating now, I bought it completely on advice of my colleagues. At that time, there were only two "serious" solutions, and I purchased the one the people I considered the smartest recommended (and mentioned that fact on the forum, so I'm glad I escaped alive).
And I'm afraid, I bought my second "serious" CAT tool based on my experience with the first, something you can't possibly do if you are a newbie, of course.

The problem with the advice of colleagues is that they will always recommend their tool of choice, especially if they paid a lot for it. Few people want to admit they paid a small fortune for ACME, and it stinks.

The situation at the moment is far too complex for my approach at that time. There are dozens of tools, and they vary in features and price. Enormously. On the other hand, you may not need all those features, and you can earn back the purchase of a CAT tool (if it's not free) in no time. And they are tax-deductable. If you pay tax, that is.

As I said, this topic deserves better. Unfortunately, I can't write a "serious" article about it. Not only because I don't use Michael's choice of software and hardware and can therefore not be taken seriously, but because I don't know all tools. Ideally, you should write a "question-answer"-like article like "If you xxx then go to yyy" which after a number of questions should lead to the most suitable tool. If it would work at all. In the meantime, I suggest the following, non-extensive set of questions:

- $$$. How much are you prepared to spend? I'm Dutch, so that's my first question, although because of reasons I mentioned above it may not be that important.
- Language combinations. They can play a role.
- File formats. Do you use or expect to use lots of file formats? Which tool handles the formats you get at the moment adequately, and do you expext to have to translate texts in other formats in the near future?
- Customers 1. Do you mainly work for the same agencies/clients? Do you need more customers?
- Customers 2. Do those customers require a certain CAT tool, and do you want to go along with that (if the answer is "Yes", your problems have been solved, that is, for the choice of the tool, although your real problems may only begin).
- Features. Which features do you really need? Tag handing (to go back to the previous postings) can be important, but if you only translate books, your publisher will probably want the "plainest" text you can produce. Heaps of other features can be life-saving or utterly unimportant.

As I said, I mentioned only the tip of the iceberg. It would be nice - as far as I'm concerned - to concentrate on the topic theoretically, rather than shouting "Use ACME! I use ACME, and it's the best!"

Cheers,

Hans (on the iPad, so please forgive me any spelling or other mistakes)

[Edited at 2012-12-23 01:05 GMT]


 
Antoní­n Otáhal
Antoní­n Otáhal
Local time: 23:16
Member (2005)
English to Czech
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One important aspect Dec 23, 2012

It is of course interesting and enlightening to follow this thread with a serious discussion of technical aspects this or that CAT tool has. Let me just point out one thing: man is a subjective animal and whether you do or do not like your CAT tool (I mean, for example: layout, colours, adaptability, terminology management, etc.) is very important. After all, nearly all tools manage nearly all features (I know, it is not exactly true and one can discuss questions like tag processin... See more
It is of course interesting and enlightening to follow this thread with a serious discussion of technical aspects this or that CAT tool has. Let me just point out one thing: man is a subjective animal and whether you do or do not like your CAT tool (I mean, for example: layout, colours, adaptability, terminology management, etc.) is very important. After all, nearly all tools manage nearly all features (I know, it is not exactly true and one can discuss questions like tag processing or embedded Office files to no end). But if you do like working with your tool, your productivity will be higher, and vice versa.

Antonin
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Tom45 (X)
Tom45 (X)
Local time: 23:16
Support and development Dec 23, 2012


- $$$. How much are you prepared to spend? I'm Dutch, so that's my first question, although because of reasons I mentioned above it may not be that important.
- Language combinations. They can play a role.
- File formats. Do you use or expect to use lots of file formats? Which tool handles the formats you get at the moment adequately, and do you expext to have to translate texts in other formats in the near future?
- Customers 1. Do you mainly work for the same agencies/clients? Do you need more customers?
- Customers 2. Do those customers require a certain CAT tool, and do you want to go along with that (if the answer is "Yes", your problems have been solved, that is, for the choice of the tool, although your real problems may only begin).
- Features. Which features do you really need? Tag handing (to go back to the previous postings) can be important, but if you only translate books, your publisher will probably want the "plainest" text you can produce. Heaps of other features can be life-saving or utterly unimportant.


Good work!

May I add two more questions that I found relevant personally? (In fact they drove me away from my once favourite ACME.)

- How well/responsive is Support?
- What is the pace of development (e.g. how quickly are new Machine Translation engines added)?

BTW: There is a French guy running an office in Germany, Dr. François Massion, that makes very good comparisons. Alas, I don't know any recent publications.

http://www.uebersetzerportal.de/nachrichten/n-archiv/2005/2005-12/2005-12-22.html

But then again, for a novice this kind of detailed info just might be overkill.


 
Dominique Pivard
Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:16
Finnish to French
Start with free/inexpensive tools Dec 24, 2012

Zeki Bey wrote:
I have never used a CAT tool, but i want to.
But there seems to be a lot of CAT tool options, which confuses me.
Where should i start ? and which tools should i choose in the first place ?

As Sergei suggested, start with a free one, or an inexpensive one. I recently made short videos about 5 such tools:

OmegaT (free, 15 MB download): http://youtu.be/O7y6zWzV-yY?hd=1
MemSource Cloud Personal (free, 18 MB download): http://youtu.be/VonxyPL0Iic?hd=1
Wordfast Anywhere (free, nothing to download): http://youtu.be/ww28wyVoYSw?hd=1
CafeTran Espresso (80 euros, 3 MB download): http://youtu.be/h1vUGxaRCvI?hd=1
MetaTexis (39 to 139 euros, 10 MB download): http://youtu.be/P_I3wB622C4?hd=1

They all have a small footprint (compare that to Across, the undisputed king of bloatware in this business!) and include more features than you'll ever need during the next 2-3 years. All except MetaTexis also work on Mac and Linux (if you happen not to be a Windows person). Try them all and see which one best fits your personal preferences.

Unfortunately, the two paid ones have a rather restrictive trial policy (I personally think they are shooting themselves in the foot with such a policy), so you won't be able to do much with them before the limitations kick in. But even if you do end up buying them and they turn out not to be suitable for you, it won't be the end of the world (compared to spending 500 to 1000 euros on the most expensive ones).


Olavo Nogueira
 
Drew MacFadyen
Drew MacFadyen  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 18:16
Spanish to English
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Compare tools, feedback and simple links to free trials Dec 24, 2012

You can compare tools side by side, read reviews and feedback and find links to support forums, and free trials for many tools at ProZ.com's Software comparison tool

Regards,

Drew


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 23:16
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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OmegaT video :-) Dec 24, 2012

Dominique Pivard wrote:
I recently made short videos about 5 such tools:
OmegaT (free, 15 MB download): http://youtu.be/O7y6zWzV-yY?hd=1


Nice. I also have an OmegaT video (based on a slightly older version of the program), and of course I have a less sexy voice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT5KN4vuIEM


 
trhanslator (X)
trhanslator (X)
Hard to focus on the text with Omega (at least for me) Dec 25, 2012

Samuel Murray wrote:

Nice. I also have an OmegaT video (based on a slightly older version of the program), and of course I have a less sexy voice:


I wouldn't say that.

What I personally find very distracting from focussing on the text to be translated, are the huge segment markups and the inline markups.

Can they be collapsed?


 
trhanslator (X)
trhanslator (X)
30 TUs in CafeTran are free Dec 25, 2012

Dominique Pivard wrote:

Unfortunately, the two paid ones have a rather restrictive trial policy (I personally think they are shooting themselves in the foot with such a policy.


I agree. 30 TUs isn't very realistic. I can see where this restriction comes from – hope the developer finds a better solution. I don't have an opinion on this, yet: what would be better: a time-limited version or a fixed number of segments policy or ... or ...?

Your input please.


 
Michael Beijer
Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:16
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
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@trhanslator: Dec 25, 2012

I think a 30-day fully functional trial is the way to go. That way you can really test the program and get a feel for it.

Michael


 
Dominique Pivard
Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:16
Finnish to French
Wordfast's approach Dec 26, 2012

trhanslator wrote:
I agree. 30 TUs isn't very realistic. I can see where this restriction comes from – hope the developer finds a better solution. I don't have an opinion on this, yet: what would be better: a time-limited version or a fixed number of segments policy or ... or ...?

I believe the approach adopted by Wordfast (maximum number of entries per TM) is optimal: people can use the tool for real work without time pressure. If a software stops working after 30 days and I'm not buying it, I will stop using it (and will probably never buy it). If it keeps working, albeit in a restricted way (but not too restricted), I may continue using it and may eventually end up buying it.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 23:16
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Hans, re: OmegaT Dec 26, 2012

trhanslator wrote:
What I personally find very distracting [in OmegaT] from focussing on the text to be translated, are the huge segment markups and the inline markups. ... Can they be collapsed?


My video mentioned previously was based on an earlier version of OmegaT. In that version, the target field had <segment 0001> and </segment 0001> on either side of it. The latest version only has <segment 0001>, at the *end* of the target field. This means that in the latest versions of OmegaT the source text and target text are neatly underneath each other.

Also, in the earlier version of OmegaT the inline tags were the same colour as the rest of the text, but in more recent versions of OmegaT the tags are grey, so it's a lot easier to distinguish them from the rest of the text.

That said, I agree that focusing on the translatable text it is a big problem with OmegaT. In my other CAT tools, the current segment has a box around it, which makes it a lot easier to focus on what I'm doing (even if I look away from the screen for a moment or two). With OmegaT, the current segment sort of floats around in empty space and is practically indistinguishable from the other segments.


 
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