| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | CAT Decision Thread poster: Whisper9999
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Please confirm | Oct 15, 2008 |
Hermann Bruns wrote:
MetaTexis can handle TTX files, after all!
Can you please confirm if MetaTexis can truly handle TTX files if the translator does not have Trados installed on his computer? I assume it can't create TTX files, but if it can translate it, then that is at least something. Can MetaTexis also interpret the INI files that sometimes come with TTX files?
| | | | | | | Try the free version | Oct 15, 2008 |
Why don´t try the free demos and free CAT tools like wordfast Omeagat or even Across ( I´m using it now, and I think is it very interresting ), so meanwhile you can get more aquintance (?) with files format ?
Bst Regards
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Fernando Guimaraes wrote:
Why don´t try the free demos and free CAT tools like wordfast Omeagat or even Across ( I´m using it now, and I think is it very interresting ), so meanwhile you can get more aquintance (?) with files format ?
Bst Regards
I have downloaded MetaTexis last night. But the problem is that I don't know what agencies normally expect as far as inputs and outputs.
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Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | More Questions | Oct 16, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Cristina Coronado wrote:
1. There are tagged RTF (Trados Unclean), untagged (regular) RTFs, TTX and TMX I believe. Which of these formats do agencies like to send you? I wonder if untagged RTF is ever a source format any more. My clients all send MS Word files, not RTF files. And I think you have to make a distinction between uncleaned RTF and tagged RTF files too. And different people mean different things by these terms also. TTX is a bilingual source text format. TMX is a translation memory format. Untagged RTF is a unilingual source text format, but if you translate it and deliver it as an uncleaned RTF then it is a bilingual format, obviously. The same goes for tagged RTF, although some people do not regard such a file as tagged if it isn't also uncleaned, and an uncleaned file is bilingual. Got you confused yet? A client will rarely ask you to translate a TMX file. The only tool I know of that can edit a TMX file in the same way as it edits other files, is VirTaal. Please let me know if you know of more such tools. 3. I assume by "tagged" you mean with standard XML tags, right? Well, a lot of people who move in the same circles as I do use the term "tagged RTF" to refer to a styled RTF that usually contains XML tags, but not necessarily. I suppose in other circles the term may be used more narrowly to refer to only RTFs that are tagged and that contain XML tags. I am asking 1 and 2 because that will help me not to get a CAT tool that will not serve my purposes. Clients may send you pre-processed files or they may expect you to do the pre-processing yourself. I myself can handle all of Trados' formats using only Wordfast, but that is because the files are pre-processed by my clients. If I had to create the files myself, I'd need to use a demo version of Trados in some cases, or full version of Trados in other cases. I also try to use Swordfish in such cases, but I haven't had that much experience with it to give you any meaningful answer about it. Don't worry about RTF for the moment. The big Trados format is TTX. Ask if the CAT tool can (a) create a new TTX and (b) translate an existing TTX. If the tool can do at least #b, then it's a good buy. If not, then there's no point in venturing into the muddy waters of which RTF dialect the tool supports.
Thank you for the detailed answer. So, if I'm understanding right, most agencies will send you a Word document and then ask you for the delivery of a TTX file, right? And usually they do "pre-processing"? Can you say a little bit more about what that is? The reason I'm asking is that I want to know what to look for as I examine MetaTexis, Swordfish and whatever else I try. In my opinion, as you are going through the Help Files and documentation, it's important to know what is critical and what is not.
Also, I think you are saying that a client could ask you to "translate" a TMX file, but that is comparatively rare? But I am confused because you said that it should at least be able to do that, yet it is not very common? Can you say a little more about that?
The reason that I am asking is that I am looking at the MetaTexis icons in Word and I don't even know what my goal is!
Again, thanks everyone for the help.
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Even More Questions | Oct 16, 2008 |
Samuel Murray wrote: Cristina Coronado wrote:
1. There are tagged RTF (Trados Unclean), untagged (regular) RTFs, TTX and TMX I believe. Which of these formats do agencies like to send you? I wonder if untagged RTF is ever a source format any more. My clients all send MS Word files, not RTF files. And I think you have to make a distinction between uncleaned RTF and tagged RTF files too. And different people mean different things by these terms also. TTX is a bilingual source text format. TMX is a translation memory format. Untagged RTF is a unilingual source text format, but if you translate it and deliver it as an uncleaned RTF then it is a bilingual format, obviously. The same goes for tagged RTF, although some people do not regard such a file as tagged if it isn't also uncleaned, and an uncleaned file is bilingual. Got you confused yet? A client will rarely ask you to translate a TMX file. The only tool I know of that can edit a TMX file in the same way as it edits other files, is VirTaal. Please let me know if you know of more such tools. 3. I assume by "tagged" you mean with standard XML tags, right? Well, a lot of people who move in the same circles as I do use the term "tagged RTF" to refer to a styled RTF that usually contains XML tags, but not necessarily. I suppose in other circles the term may be used more narrowly to refer to only RTFs that are tagged and that contain XML tags. I am asking 1 and 2 because that will help me not to get a CAT tool that will not serve my purposes. Clients may send you pre-processed files or they may expect you to do the pre-processing yourself. I myself can handle all of Trados' formats using only Wordfast, but that is because the files are pre-processed by my clients. If I had to create the files myself, I'd need to use a demo version of Trados in some cases, or full version of Trados in other cases. I also try to use Swordfish in such cases, but I haven't had that much experience with it to give you any meaningful answer about it. Don't worry about RTF for the moment. The big Trados format is TTX. Ask if the CAT tool can (a) create a new TTX and (b) translate an existing TTX. If the tool can do at least #b, then it's a good buy. If not, then there's no point in venturing into the muddy waters of which RTF dialect the tool supports.
Sorry, a couple of more questions: when the clients send you a Word document, is it just a standard Word document with paragraphs written in the language they want you to translate? Or is it more complicated that that? For example, you said they often "pre-process it"? So I'm wondering if these Word documents are actually in XML or something??
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| It may be easier to... | Oct 16, 2008 |
Cristina Coronado wrote:
So, if I'm understanding right, most agencies will send you a Word document and then ask you for the delivery of a TTX file, right?
No. There is no "most agencies" here. There is only "the agencies that you target". You have decided to target agencies that require delivery in Trados formats. Even within that target group you may expect a variety of workflows.
In my personal opinion, an agency should be able to give you a TTX file if they expect a TTX file back, but it is possible that they simply send the source file (in MS Word format) and ask for the translation in TTX (or both TTX and MS Word). Anything is possible, and this is why if you know very little about CAT tools and you still decide to pursue Trados-type jobs, you should stick to tools that offer maximum compatibility.
The reason I'm asking is that I want to know what to look for as I examine MetaTexis, Swordfish and whatever else I try. In my opinion, as you are going through the Help Files and documentation, it's important to know what is critical and what is not.
It may be simpler to just join the support mailing lists of all the tools you're trying, and ask them (a) can this tool convert MS Office files to TTX and (b) can this tool be used to translate TTX files (without having to pre-process and/or post-process it in another tool). Folks on mailing lists know a lot more about the tools.
When the clients send you a Word document, is it just a standard Word document with paragraphs written in the language they want you to translate? Or is it more complicated that that? For example, you said they often "pre-process it"? So I'm wondering if these Word documents are actually in XML or something??
I'm sure the ATA has a branch in Arizona. See if you can coax one of its members to show you the ropes. You'll feel more confident once you know the basics.
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
Samuel Murray wrote: Cristina Coronado wrote:
So, if I'm understanding right, most agencies will send you a Word document and then ask you for the delivery of a TTX file, right? No. There is no "most agencies" here. There is only "the agencies that you target". You have decided to target agencies that require delivery in Trados formats. Even within that target group you may expect a variety of workflows. In my personal opinion, an agency should be able to give you a TTX file if they expect a TTX file back, but it is possible that they simply send the source file (in MS Word format) and ask for the translation in TTX (or both TTX and MS Word). Anything is possible, and this is why if you know very little about CAT tools and you still decide to pursue Trados-type jobs, you should stick to tools that offer maximum compatibility. The reason I'm asking is that I want to know what to look for as I examine MetaTexis, Swordfish and whatever else I try. In my opinion, as you are going through the Help Files and documentation, it's important to know what is critical and what is not. It may be simpler to just join the support mailing lists of all the tools you're trying, and ask them (a) can this tool convert MS Office files to TTX and (b) can this tool be used to translate TTX files (without having to pre-process and/or post-process it in another tool). Folks on mailing lists know a lot more about the tools. When the clients send you a Word document, is it just a standard Word document with paragraphs written in the language they want you to translate? Or is it more complicated that that? For example, you said they often "pre-process it"? So I'm wondering if these Word documents are actually in XML or something?? I'm sure the ATA has a branch in Arizona. See if you can coax one of its members to show you the ropes. You'll feel more confident once you know the basics.
Thank you for the great ideas and information and taking the time to spell out so much of the process.
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Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER
There's another reason I want to do things right from the start. If I understand right, all these tools build up a database of translations for you. I assume that you can't really transfer from one platform to the other, so if you decide to switch after a year or two, you've lost all that information that has been stored, right?
| | | | | Not at all. You can import and export your databases. | Oct 16, 2008 |
Not at all. Most CAT tools can export and import their databases.
By databases, I mean Translation Memories (that includes the source and target terms, the languages and sub-languages, and might include the format, context, examples, even pictures, depending on the CAT tool); the most popular import/export formats are *.txt and *.TMX files, but I don't think they're the only ones.
You can also export/import simple and even more complex glossaries. Again, the format depe... See more Not at all. Most CAT tools can export and import their databases.
By databases, I mean Translation Memories (that includes the source and target terms, the languages and sub-languages, and might include the format, context, examples, even pictures, depending on the CAT tool); the most popular import/export formats are *.txt and *.TMX files, but I don't think they're the only ones.
You can also export/import simple and even more complex glossaries. Again, the format depends on the CAT tool, I assume. And even thought there might be problems of conversion (like corrupted characters), those can be fixed.
Even with Transit (which doesn't use TMs), you can import and export your databases.
I stick to what I said at the beginning, you can read as much as you can about CAT tools, but it would be better if you start working with a simple one (like Metatexis, which is the easiest to use IMHO--the manual is very clear) so you can actually see how they work.
About the formats, depending on your clients, you will get different formats. But since you're starting, you will probably get more requests to translate MS-Word documents and deliver the translation, with the occasional request for the "uncleaned" file, which as you have read, you can produce with several programs.
Cristina Coronado wrote:
There's another reason I want to do things right from the start. If I understand right, all these tools build up a database of translations for you. I assume that you can't really transfer from one platform to the other, so if you decide to switch after a year or two, you've lost all that information that has been stored, right?
[Edited at 2008-10-16 17:33] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Claudia Alvis wrote: Not at all. Most CAT tools can export and import their databases. By databases, I mean Translation Memories (that includes the source and target terms, the languages and sub-languages, and might include the format, context, examples, even pictures, depending on the CAT tool); the most popular import/export formats are *.txt and *.TMX files, but I don't think they're the only ones. You can also export/import simple and even more complex glossaries. Again, the format depends on the CAT tool, I assume. And even thought there might be problems of conversion (like corrupted characters), those can be fixed. Even with Transit (which doesn't use TMs), you can import and export your databases. I stick to what I said at the beginning, you can read as much as you can about CAT tools, but it would be better if you start working with a simple one (like Metatexis, which is the easiest to use IMHO--the manual is very clear) so you can actually see how they work. About the formats, depending on your clients, you will get different formats. But since you're starting, you will probably get more requests to translate MS-Word documents and deliver the translation, with the occasional request for the "uncleaned" file, which as you have read, you can produce with several programs. Cristina Coronado wrote:
There's another reason I want to do things right from the start. If I understand right, all these tools build up a database of translations for you. I assume that you can't really transfer from one platform to the other, so if you decide to switch after a year or two, you've lost all that information that has been stored, right? [Edited at 2008-10-16 17:33]
Thank you for the informaton - that's a big relief.
And, actually, I was playing around with Metatexis last night. I just created a Word doc and began stepping right through it. You're right - it was easy to learn. I didn't know what I was doing - there were paragraphs disappearing off of my page - but I did learn a lot from playing around.
What I'm wondering, though, is if there are examples of some of the other file types that you might get delivered just so I could look at them. I just kind of wanted to look at some of these to understand what everyone was talking about.
[Edited at 2008-10-16 21:54]
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Swordfish Post | Oct 16, 2008 |
This is very interesting. (I am posting for other people new at all this who might read this thread.) I posted the exact question given to me above by Samuel Murray in the Swordfish forum and below is the response I got for those interested:
> This is my first post and I'm a total newbie. In fact, I haven't even
> bought Swordfish yet but am very interested. Here is my question: can
> Swordfish do a) and b) below?
>
> (a) convert MS Office files to... See more This is very interesting. (I am posting for other people new at all this who might read this thread.) I posted the exact question given to me above by Samuel Murray in the Swordfish forum and below is the response I got for those interested:
> This is my first post and I'm a total newbie. In fact, I haven't even
> bought Swordfish yet but am very interested. Here is my question: can
> Swordfish do a) and b) below?
>
> (a) convert MS Office files to TTX and (b) be used to translate TTX
> files (without having to pre-process and/or post-process it in another
> tool)
a) No, Swordfish cannot create TTX files
b) Swordfish can translate TTX files.
Notice that if you receive a TTX file, you have to deliver a translated
TTX file. Only the tool that created the TTX can export the translation
to the original format.
[Edited at 2008-10-16 22:02] ▲ Collapse
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| Creation of TTX files | Oct 16, 2008 |
Cristina Coronado wrote:
> (a) convert MS Office files to TTX and (b) be used to translate TTX
> files (without having to pre-process and/or post-process it in another
> tool)
a) No, Swordfish cannot create TTX files
b) Swordfish can translate TTX files.
Hi Cristina,
Swordfish doesn't need to create TTX files. It uses XLIFF files as intermediate format.
If you receive a web page and you translate it with Swordfish, you will be able to deliver a translated web page.
Normally, you deliver a translate version of the file you receive, plus a translation memory if the client requires it.
If you receive a TTX file, you have to deliver a translated TTX file. Your client will "clean" the TTX and produce the final document using Trados.
You don't need to create a TTX from the source document for delivery. What you need is the ability to process the TTX files received from your client. With Swordfish and several other tools you can do that.
You only need to generate TTX files if you decide to work with Trados TagEditor.
Regards,
Rodolfo
| | | | Whisper9999
Local time: 09:42
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | I Think I'm Getting It | Oct 17, 2008 |
Rodolfo Raya wrote: Cristina Coronado wrote:
> (a) convert MS Office files to TTX and (b) be used to translate TTX
> files (without having to pre-process and/or post-process it in another
> tool)
a) No, Swordfish cannot create TTX files
b) Swordfish can translate TTX files.
Hi Cristina, Swordfish doesn't need to create TTX files. It uses XLIFF files as intermediate format. If you receive a web page and you translate it with Swordfish, you will be able to deliver a translated web page. Normally, you deliver a translate version of the file you receive, plus a translation memory if the client requires it. If you receive a TTX file, you have to deliver a translated TTX file. Your client will "clean" the TTX and produce the final document using Trados. You don't need to create a TTX from the source document for delivery. What you need is the ability to process the TTX files received from your client. With Swordfish and several other tools you can do that. You only need to generate TTX files if you decide to work with Trados TagEditor.
Okay, thank you. I think I'm getting closer to understanding. Just out of curiosity, if you "recieve a web page" as you put it, is it XML or HTML or what is it usually? So, regardless if it's HTML or XML, Swordfish will handle it and deliver a translated web page in the same format?
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 19:42
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Rodolfo Raya wrote: Cristina Coronado wrote that someone else had written:
a) Swordfish cannot create TTX files
b) Swordfish can translate TTX files. If you receive a web page and you translate it with Swordfish, you will be able to deliver a translated web page. ... Normally, you deliver a translate version of the file you receive, plus a translation memory if the client requires it.
Yes, but sometimes the client sends you a file (eg a web page) and asks that you return a TTX file.
If you receive a TTX file, you have to deliver a translated TTX file. Your client will "clean" the TTX and produce the final document using Trados.
Yes, that it usually the case, although I've had it on two occasions where the client sent both TTX and original file and expected me to deliver the translated TTX and the translated/recreated original file. Perhaps I just have weird clients.
You don't need to create a TTX from the source document for delivery. What you need is the ability to process the TTX files received from your client.
I think we're assuming quite a lot here about what workflow the client will or will not use. If the client sends you the TTX file, you'll usually have to deliver a TTX file, and then all you need is a program that can edit TTX files. Perhaps the OP should remember to tell clients "I can translate TTX files that you have created, but I can't create TTX files myself".
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