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Is there a demand for a translation memory exchange?
Thread poster: sdvplatt
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
@Andy Mar 10, 2018

Gross Annual Billing x next 20 years = €1.9m
Considering the language pairs, content, specialization, globalization, rollup, clients, region, market trends, further "fuzzy" reductions ("letter match discounts"?), and so on, It's not the fair price, is it? Let alone where you took some 20 yrs and the fact--YOU WILL ALSO SELL THE TMs.
You are serious about selling the biz, not the by-products, yes? However, no SWOT analysis, no way.

They can't stand even a $1000 bet to recreate the text from the TM, so let your 2M hopes go free
Yet still,
why agencies CAN sell/reuse others' TMs and freelancers supposedly can't?


[Edited at 2018-03-10 07:24 GMT]


 
sdvplatt
sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:26
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German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
my reply Mar 10, 2018

Texte Style wrote:

pre-loved condoms, aspiring to Clapton-esque deification, rash betting, I see I missed a fair bit of excitement yesterday!

I'm not all that interested in other people' TMs. Apart from the fact that little of what I translate is CAT tool suitable, I rarely see anything nowadays that makes me think "ah yes that's a much better way to translate that troublesome term" in TMs or glossaries. When I do have a Eureka moment, it's when I'm looking at material written by a native of my target language without reference to the source language.

It could have helped me as a beginner and I don't agree that it would hold me back at beginner level. It would be a more "on-the-fly" method than the time I spent putting together a glossary from previous translations when I first started working at the agency. However beginners typically don't have money to invest in that kind of thing.

Moreover, the sheer volume of material on internet means that there is less and less need for them. When I started translating, Internet wasn't even a thing and I used to travel all over Paris to various libraries to find what I needed. Nowadays there is so much stuff out, there the problem is more a matter of choosing which source you can trust. Adding a TM or glossary from another translator simply adds to the confusion.


All that said, I would happily pass on my redacted material to a younger translator if ever I retire. Like a mentor's gift. It would have to be a translator who trusts and appreciates my work of course.


Fair points. How could one package that knowledge so that it could be sold on to an aspiring translator?
I know language is very difficult to model computationally but there has to be a way to make the process as efficient as possible.


 
sdvplatt
sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:26
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
so much emotion Mar 10, 2018

Andy Watkinson wrote:

deutschenglisch wrote:

Andy Watkinson wrote:

NDAs, TMs, MT, TUs, Data Protection laws.... Nobody here is talking about what to me is the most important thing.

Why on earth would I, or anyone else, want to sell, for a relative pittance, something which has taken us decades to acquire?

You are free to come and take from my cold, almost dead, hands the sum total of my accumulated knowledge and "whathaveyou", provided you pay me and mine enough to live comfortably for the next couple of decades....

Any takers?





What happens when you want to leave the industry?



a. It's not an "industry" (and a translation is not a "project"), and b. who says I'm ever leaving?



What about swapping your expertise for someone else's expertise in a different area?



Why would I, at this stage in the proceedings, want someone else's expertise in a different area? I'm not going to suddenly start translating a totally different field to my areas of expertise. I'm not stupid and not unprofessional.


What about swapping/selling a small fraction of your written output?



I haven't built up my knowledge, however meagre it may be, over 40 years, before the advent of even humble, Internetless PCs and fax machines, to start swapping it for "someone else's stuff" as if I were back in the school playground.

I'm more than willing to help people out with terminology/stylistic snags as shown by my record here on Proz for the last 17 years or so.
That's a far cry from what you're suggesting.

And yes, I'm aware that others having access to my output is the same as me having access to the notated version of Eric Clapton's "Steppin' out" - i.e. it's not going to make me God.

My original offer still stands.

Gross Annual Billing x next 20 years = €1.9m

Any takers?

I'd really like to retire.

[Edited at 2018-03-10 02:01 GMT]


If you let emotions rule your head you are one lost puppy when translation finally becomes impossible to live of unless you are in the minority of people born to do it , which is not Proz' target group to be perfectly honest.


 
sdvplatt
sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:26
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
to be fair translators were an easy mark Mar 10, 2018

DZiW wrote:

deutschenglisch, despite the definitions, a commercialized idea of computer-aided translation tools under a flashy motto
Never translate the same again!
logically turned into a posh
Never be paid for translating the same again!
Therefore, they SELL translators a tool to WORK & PAY under their terms.

Funny, re-using the own TM is a 'standard' whereas re-using others' by-product--TMs--is allegedly NOT ok for freelancers, yet a standard practice and even a must for ALL the rest--agencies, mid-men, and customers--go figure. Just a moment, ain't there at least 50% of translator's property? Joking...

Now I also prefer either something like VLTM (Very Large TM), or teaming up; but several times I did successfully use others' TMs (mostly in new fields).

Of course, depersonalized data is but information, that's why no language specialist could recreate the text ('client's property') from some 10K+ TM, let alone prove it's somebody else's work--unless reusing 'fuzzy matches' blindly, without thinking, perhaps.


Funny, re-using the own TM is a 'standard' whereas re-using others' by-product--TMs--is allegedly NOT ok for freelancers, yet a standard practice and even a must for ALL the rest--agencies, mid-men, and customers--go figure. Just a moment, ain't there at least 50% of translator's property? Joking...

No need to joke. Its the truth. Of course many bought into this model blindly. But this trick has been going on forever. Its up to individuals to work it to their advantage. Thats why I dont understand the emotional attachment people have to certain ideas. Its just a business decision at the end of the day.


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 18:26
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Hmm Mar 10, 2018

No need to joke. Its the truth. Of course many bought into this model blindly. But this trick has been going on forever. Its up to individuals to work it to their advantage. Thats why I dont understand the emotional attachment people have to certain ideas. Its just a business decision at the end of the day.

Let's hope your TMs aren't missing apostrophes as well.

[Edited at 2018-03-10 13:28 GMT]


 
Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Emotions? Mar 10, 2018

deutschenglisch wrote:


If you let emotions rule your head you are one lost puppy ....



What on earth are you talking about?

(But thanks for "puppy" - makes me feel young again


 
Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
¿? Mar 10, 2018

DZiW wrote:


Considering the language pairs, content, specialization, globalization, rollup, clients, region, market trends, further "fuzzy" reductions ("letter match discounts"?), and so on, It's not the fair price, is it? Let alone where you took some 20 yrs and the fact--YOU WILL ALSO SELL THE TMs.
You are serious about selling the biz, not the by-products, yes? However, no SWOT analysis, no way.

They can't stand even a $1000 bet to recreate the text from the TM, so let your 2M hopes go free


I'm serious about selling "the biz"? SWOT analysis?

"Byproducts"?....

Honestly, I've read your post three times and am none the wiser.

Why don't you try English?









[Edited at 2018-03-10 14:33 GMT]


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
define:biz Mar 10, 2018

Andy, I understand you cannot give the answers, but don't make me and others worry how you--as a language specialist--deal with new information (including new words and terms).

1) Does selling your business ("biz") also implies selling your TMs?
2) How do you assess your biz without SWOT-analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis )?
3) Why a
... See more
Andy, I understand you cannot give the answers, but don't make me and others worry how you--as a language specialist--deal with new information (including new words and terms).

1) Does selling your business ("biz") also implies selling your TMs?
2) How do you assess your biz without SWOT-analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis )?
3) Why agencies CAN sell/reuse others' TMs and freelancers supposedly can't?

TY

[Edited at 2018-03-10 14:49 GMT]
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The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 06:26
Russian to English
+ ...
An Uber driver and a train engineer - they are essentially the same, right? Mar 10, 2018

After all, they both operate something that moves and has wheels. So what's good for the goose, I mean the Uber guy, is good for the choo choo commander too, isn't it?

Reading this thread sure did make me chuckle quite a few times. For what I do (legal - and no, it does not involve birth certificates or purchase and sale contracts), the idea of swapping, sharing or reusing someone else's TMs is not just preposterous. It is as alien as, I don't know, Jupiter is to Earth. It simply co
... See more
After all, they both operate something that moves and has wheels. So what's good for the goose, I mean the Uber guy, is good for the choo choo commander too, isn't it?

Reading this thread sure did make me chuckle quite a few times. For what I do (legal - and no, it does not involve birth certificates or purchase and sale contracts), the idea of swapping, sharing or reusing someone else's TMs is not just preposterous. It is as alien as, I don't know, Jupiter is to Earth. It simply could not be thought of, period. And it's not even the matter of this law or other saying that I do or do not owe my clients a fiduciary duty. Regardless, I always assume I do - or I simply wouldn't be doing what I am doing. No one would hire me. There are rules, and then there are rules, you know. Not all of the latter are codified or even written.

Second, from my experience, even my own TMs ACROSS different projects are pretty much useless because even seemingly standard fare such as force majeure clauses or NDA terms may be written in such a variety of different ways that it is always easier and faster to rewrite them from scratch. That notorious legal boilerplate only exists and makes sense within the framework of the same recurring project or business, or narrowly defined, purpose-driven documents (say, software end user agreements) - not across different businesses or product lines.

Third, I wouldn't touch anyone else's TMs even if they paid me. Oh, all right, maybe I would if they did because I routinely get paid to clean up messes someone else made. But do it for free, let alone pay for the "privilege"? Gimme a break. Why not? Well, because after 30+ years in this business, I have my own particular way of phrasing things and specific terms I think fit best for specific purposes, all of which contributes to the specific brand that is me, if you will. I also like thinking that this particular brand is what my repeat business (which is 99% of my entire business) is all about.

Which, of course, does not mean that parts of different vacuum cleaner or CNC- driven mousetrap user manuals could not, as a matter of principle, be reused. They are all vacuum cleaners after all, no? But I wouldn't know. I don't do vacuum cleaners.

What all of this does mean is that the original question, as asked on a general purpose forum, makes no sense whatsoever. Demand from who? From what particular type of translators? In what pairs? For what specific types of clients? The devil, as we all know, is in the details. Because in the end of the day, this is not an "industry" that has much in common - at least no more so than horse-drawn buggy drivers, limo chauffeurs, train engineers and astronauts do.

Where I do agree is that none of this has anything to do with emotion or ethics. These are all purely business decisions. Nothing personal, gentlemen.
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Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Chill Mar 11, 2018

deutschenglisch wrote:.

Funny, re-using the own TM is a 'standard' whereas re-using others' by-product--TMs--is allegedly NOT ok for freelancers



Each person decides what they're OK with.
As stated previously, I'm quite happy to clarify things for someone who's a bit baffled by s.t., the same as I could have been, but it should be apparent to you that yes, translators "using their own TM is standard". Of course it is. It's theirs FFS
Using someone else's is an entirely different kettle of fish.


yet a standard practice and even a must for ALL the rest--agencies, mid-men, and customers--go figure.



Do not make the mistake of assuming your situation is the same as others. I work for direct clients and agencies.

My (few) direct clients would not know what a TM is even if struck by one from a great height.

If I can find a workaround with an agency to use my one and only CAT I will do so. If not, well, they're not the only agency in the world as I'm not the only ES/CAT-EN translator.

What's the problem?

[/quote]

Thats why I dont (sic) understand the emotional attachment people have to certain ideas.



There is no emotion. Simple common sense. You don't get it, do you?

And Lincoln for once is right. Wouldn't want to get stiffed by an apostrophy-less TM.


 
Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Well... Mar 11, 2018

DZiW wrote:

Andy, I understand you cannot give the answers, but don't make me and others worry how you--as a language specialist--deal with new information (including new words and terms).



Well, How kind. My information-assimilation-capabilities must have been temporarily suspended.
My apologies. Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.


1) Does selling your business ("biz") also implies selling your TMs?
2) How do you assess your biz without SWOT-analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWOT_analysis )?
3) Why agencies CAN sell/reuse others' TMs and freelancers supposedly can't?


Oh dear.

1) Of course.
2) I'm not entirely convinced you know what a SA is.
3) Nobody's forbidding freelancers from doing anything.

The real question is very simple: "Is it a Good Thing" (1066)

Maybe for some. The Misha has weighed in with what I consider some more than useful insights.


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Thinkin' out guess-work Mar 11, 2018

How Well, no more 'copyright infringements' excuse or lamentations, yet I still can't get where others take a couple of wrong assumptions that
1) others' TMs are *always* far below par,
2) one should reuse TMs--confirm all the matches from CAT prompts *mindlessly*, and
3) it's enough just to multiply gross sales by XX years to sell a biz, without any real assessment.

(Actually, it would be interesting to know the procedure how gentlemen and ladies sell translation business in the Europe; Andy?)

I agree that even some of my own TMs are rather specific and hardy would ever do for other clients' needs and terms; say, a 12K+ marketing provisional translation for ESL mid-class buyers in a region or Chernobyl 'Confinement' essays, but they were ok for the customers. Furthermore, I review and amend the target text beyond CAT, deleting, concatenating, rewording, and splitting some 10% of sentences (aka segments) to make it more natural.

However, the utmost idea (and the purpose of utterance) is
the translator must read and understand all the prompts--be it glossaries/vocabularies, TMs, auto-suggestions, internal matches, MT, and so on--choosing and editing it *wisely*, considering the style/audience, the lex, and the very clients' guidelines.
Such an approach deal with all the possible incongruities--even for CATs. (Also that's why I allow no fuzzy matches discounts.)


 
Andy Watkinson
Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 11:26
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Mar 12, 2018



 
sdvplatt
sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:27
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Best post Mar 12, 2018

The Misha wrote:

After all, they both operate something that moves and has wheels. So what's good for the goose, I mean the Uber guy, is good for the choo choo commander too, isn't it?

Reading this thread sure did make me chuckle quite a few times. For what I do (legal - and no, it does not involve birth certificates or purchase and sale contracts), the idea of swapping, sharing or reusing someone else's TMs is not just preposterous. It is as alien as, I don't know, Jupiter is to Earth. It simply could not be thought of, period. And it's not even the matter of this law or other saying that I do or do not owe my clients a fiduciary duty. Regardless, I always assume I do - or I simply wouldn't be doing what I am doing. No one would hire me. There are rules, and then there are rules, you know. Not all of the latter are codified or even written.

>> well thats an exaggeration and a half. I am always being given TMs for projects from other translators.

Second, from my experience, even my own TMs ACROSS different projects are pretty much useless because even seemingly standard fare such as force majeure clauses or NDA terms may be written in such a variety of different ways that it is always easier and faster to rewrite them from scratch. That notorious legal boilerplate only exists and makes sense within the framework of the same recurring project or business, or narrowly defined, purpose-driven documents (say, software end user agreements) - not across different businesses or product lines.

>>So we have reached the peak of what MT and Computational Linguistics can take us?

Third, I wouldn't touch anyone else's TMs even if they paid me. Oh, all right, maybe I would if they did because I routinely get paid to clean up messes someone else made. But do it for free, let alone pay for the "privilege"? Gimme a break. Why not? Well, because after 30+ years in this business, I have my own particular way of phrasing things and specific terms I think fit best for specific purposes, all of which contributes to the specific brand that is me, if you will. I also like thinking that this particular brand is what my repeat business (which is 99% of my entire business) is all about.

>> I disagree. Though high-quality (say company-internal approved) translations are likely to come up against the legal hurdle discussed earlier.
One need only see a preview of the material to gage its quality.


Which, of course, does not mean that parts of different vacuum cleaner or CNC- driven mousetrap user manuals could not, as a matter of principle, be reused. They are all vacuum cleaners after all, no? But I wouldn't know. I don't do vacuum cleaners.

What all of this does mean is that the original question, as asked on a general purpose forum, makes no sense whatsoever. Demand from who? From what particular type of translators? In what pairs? For what specific types of clients? The devil, as we all know, is in the details. Because in the end of the day, this is not an "industry" that has much in common - at least no more so than horse-drawn buggy drivers, limo chauffeurs, train engineers and astronauts do.

>>Demand from translators.

Where I do agree is that none of this has anything to do with emotion or ethics. These are all purely business decisions. Nothing personal, gentlemen.


>>Never a truer word..


 
sdvplatt
sdvplatt
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:27
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
the key point is that they were approved by someone Mar 12, 2018

DZiW wrote:

How Well, no more 'copyright infringements' excuse or lamentations, yet I still can't get where others take a couple of wrong assumptions that
1) others' TMs are *always* far below par,
2) one should reuse TMs--confirm all the matches from CAT prompts *mindlessly*, and
3) it's enough just to multiply gross sales by XX years to sell a biz, without any real assessment.

(Actually, it would be interesting to know the procedure how gentlemen and ladies sell translation business in the Europe; Andy?)

I agree that even some of my own TMs are rather specific and hardy would ever do for other clients' needs and terms; say, a 12K+ marketing provisional translation for ESL mid-class buyers in a region or Chernobyl 'Confinement' essays, but they were ok for the customers. Furthermore, I review and amend the target text beyond CAT, deleting, concatenating, rewording, and splitting some 10% of sentences (aka segments) to make it more natural.

However, the utmost idea (and the purpose of utterance) is
the translator must read and understand all the prompts--be it glossaries/vocabularies, TMs, auto-suggestions, internal matches, MT, and so on--choosing and editing it *wisely*, considering the style/audience, the lex, and the very clients' guidelines.
Such an approach deal with all the possible incongruities--even for CATs. (Also that's why I allow no fuzzy matches discounts.)


Content for which a client has paid has value, and that value is sat on people's machines. Why not use it?
My idea for this question was to work out how since various methods had been tried and have not caught on.
Of course the translator makes the final decision on what works or not, but there are a lot of tedious processes which computers should have sped up by now (e.g. terminology research, use of company internal style) but which seem to have spluttered to a halt since 2008 (wonder why?!!).


 
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