| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Two objections regarding TM-Town related advertising Thread poster: writeaway
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Shai Navé 
Israel
Local time: 19:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
| You still give a third-party access to sensitive data | Jun 23, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Difficult indeed, if people keep harping on about the alleged confidentiality issues around use of the site, without any mention of the Deshi route 
This is debating semantics. When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data.
The entire concept of TM-Town's matching algorithm and credit system shows a lack of understanding about translation beyond the needs of (certain type of) agencies, could be potentially abused -- and generally speaking is clearly designed as another tool in the service of the commoditizing industry. If you are happy to play along that is fine, but Deshi or not, the confidentiality (and other) issues remain the same.
[Edited at 2016-06-23 01:33 GMT]
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Local time: 01:53
| No access is given to a 3rd party | Jun 23, 2016 |
Shai Navé wrote:
This is debating semantics. When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data.
This is false. Deshi is a completely offline desktop application. You are not granting any third-party access. Deshi creates a plain text file which you can open and view before sending anything to TM-Town. If there was some confidential data in your document you could redact it from within Deshi, or you could choose not to send the Deshi file to TM-Town after viewing it. Using the Deshi app does not allow a third-party access to your confidential data.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 19:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Doesn't one need to load the TM(s) into Deshi and analyze it/them to create that keywords file one then has to upload to TM-Town? If one does, by letting the program scan the TMs one is giving a third-party access to the data.
If there was some confidential data in your document you could redact it from within Deshi, or you could choose not to send the Deshi file to TM-Town after viewing it.
The data in its entirety is confidential. And TMs are IP. Removing an identifying detail such as a name or a number is not what makes the content not confidential anymore.
By the same logic you should publish the code for TM-Town, redacting any identifying detail such as the name of the platform, components, and developer. What would be left then is just the code, and there is nothing confidential about code because it is just a collection of syntax organized in a semantic way, the principles of which anyone could learn by picking up a book. Right? The code is not IP, trade secret, or anything confidential/sensitive like that (or the product of a work requiring knowledge and expertise), nor just the tool used to create something meaningful and functional; just lines of code...
[Edited at 2016-06-23 02:50 GMT]
| | | | ..... (X)
Local time: 01:53
| No access is given to a 3rd party | Jun 23, 2016 |
Shai Navé wrote:
If one does, by letting the program scan the TMs one is giving a third-party access to the data.
No. Deshi is an offline application. It doesn't phone home or have the functionality to phone home. No third party has access to the data when you use Deshi.
Shai Navé wrote:
The data in its entirety is confidential. And TMs are IP. Removing an identifying detail such as a name or a number is not what makes the content not confidential anymore.
By the same logic you should publish the code for TM-Town, redacting any identifying detail such as the name of the platform, components, and developer. What would be left then is just the code, and there is nothing confidential about code because it is just a collection of syntax organized in a semantic way, the principles of which anyone could learn by picking up a book. Right? The code is not IP, trade secret, or anything confidential/sensitive like that (or the product of a work requiring knowledge and expertise), nor just the tool used to create something meaningful and functional; just lines of code...
Nothing is "published" on TM-Town. The documents one uploads (including Deshi files) are private. As for your analogy - we use GitHub to host TM-Town's code. GitHub is a 3rd party, but just like TM-Town, the code we upload stays private to us. GitHub does not "publish" it unless we were to choose to do so (i.e. make it public). On TM-Town we don't even give the option to "publish" one's documents (TMs) with the exception of sample translations or personal glossaries.
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Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 19:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
| Semantics again | Jun 23, 2016 |
Kevin Dias wrote:
No. Deshi is an offline application. It doesn't phone home or have the functionality to phone home. No third party has access to the data when you use Deshi.
Okay, so allowing a third-party tool to scan your IP for the purpose of creating a report is not giving access to confidential/sensitive data. Got it!
So what if it works offline? The issue here is access, not how and when data is transmitted.
GitHub is a 3rd party, but just like TM-Town, the code we upload stays private to us
There are differences between TM-Town and GitHub. For one, GitHub's main selling point is not acting as a directory with the promise of matching programmers and programming brokers by superficially matching keywords from random (and possibly unverified) projects.
Second, to the best of my knowledge unlike TM-Town until not too long ago, GitHub never tried to act as a direct intermediary between clients and translators (i.e. directly sell translation/programming services), thus creating a big conflict of interests.
Third, GitHub doesn't ask its registered users to publish their rates, allowing clients to filter by rate (because when all keywords are equal, rate is the decisive factor, right?), and while declaring "TM-Town makes it easy to find specialized professional translators for those translation jobs where quality matters" in practice allows anyone to join, some of whom charge fees that are considered unprofessional by any standard.
Fourth, GitHub doesn't boast how many code lines and other programming snippets it is storing as if those are its own IP.
[Edited at 2016-06-23 22:35 GMT]
| | | | ..... (X)
Local time: 01:53
| No access is given to a 3rd party | Jun 23, 2016 |
It is not semantics. TM-Town has no access to Deshi.
Shai Navé wrote:
Okay, so allowing a third-party tool to scan your IP for the purpose of creating a report is not giving access to confidential/sensitive data. Got it!
So what if it works offline? The issue here is access, not how and when data is transmitted.
Well, following that logic a translator must either
a) not use a computer to do their translations
b) write all their own software
as your logic rules out:
- Microsoft Word (third-party tool that scans your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Offline CAT tools (third-party tools that scan your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Email clients (third-party tools that scan your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Notepad++ (third-party tool that scans your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- etc.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 19:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
| My last comment on this subject | Jun 23, 2016 |
Kevin Dias wrote:
It is not semantics. TM-Town has no access to Deshi.
So what Deshi is used for if I decide not to upload the file it creates?
Well, following that logic a translator must either
a) not use a computer to do their translations
b) write all their own software
Not quite.
as your logic rules out:
- Microsoft Word (third-party tool that scans your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Offline CAT tools (third-party tools that scan your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Email clients (third-party tools that scan your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- Notepad++ (third-party tool that scans your IP and confidential/sensitive data)
- etc.
With the exception of online CAT tools, all the other tools you have mentioned are not specifically designed to index one's IP for the purpose of sharing it with third parties, or otherwise use it for a direct personal gain of a third party (as is the case with [most] online CAT Tools).
Mind you. I didn't comment about TM-Town's security or a possible hack (which unencrypted email is also vulnerable to). I commented about confidentiality issues inherent to the way TM-Town works. The point is not whether or not to use TM-Town -- the point is making educated decisions, and to do that people need to better understand TM-Town's business model, potential benefits, and potential risks.
| | | | ..... (X)
Local time: 01:53
| Yes, the point is making educated decisions | Jun 23, 2016 |
I agree. However, translators can not make an educated decision when misinformation is being spread as fact.
Shai Navé wrote:
- When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data. (false)
- If one does, by letting the program scan the TMs one is giving a third-party access to the data. (false)
Shai Navé wrote:
people need to better understand TM-Town's business model
Our business model is very simple. We serve translators.
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Shai Navé wrote:
This is debating semantics. When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data.
The entire concept of TM-Town's matching algorithm and credit system shows a lack of understanding about translation beyond the needs of (certain type of) agencies, could be potentially abused -- and generally speaking is clearly designed as another tool in the service of the commoditizing industry. If you are happy to play along that is fine, but Deshi or not, the confidentiality (and other) issues remain the same.
Shai, while I do basically agree with your considerations about TM-Town itself, having tried Deshi myself, I can tell you that's an offline tool that doesn't seem to send sensitive/confidential data to anyone.
When I used it, I believe my firewall (SW) didn't alert me about any connection attempt from Deshi (or about any "weird" access to dlls or other system files) and the output file resulting from the analysis of a TM is just a list of isolated words, as you would find on a dictionary...
The other info it contains are:
Version number, number of TUs, segments and words, source language, target language.
At the end there's a 40 chars hash code, which I guess is used for validation purposes, rather than to store encrypted confidential information...
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| no time to go into this in detail | Jun 23, 2016 |
Let me just say that I disagree with Shai on this, completely, as Deshi in no way constitutes a breach of confidentiality re my client's data.
Also, do you ever combine the TMs of various clients in e.g. memoQ or TMLookup for concordance purposes? By your own reasoning, wouldn't this too constitute a breach? TM-Town aims to get you work as a translator, thus benefiting you as a translator. memoQ's concordance feature aims to help you translate, thus benefiting you as a translator. I... See more Let me just say that I disagree with Shai on this, completely, as Deshi in no way constitutes a breach of confidentiality re my client's data.
Also, do you ever combine the TMs of various clients in e.g. memoQ or TMLookup for concordance purposes? By your own reasoning, wouldn't this too constitute a breach? TM-Town aims to get you work as a translator, thus benefiting you as a translator. memoQ's concordance feature aims to help you translate, thus benefiting you as a translator. In both cases, you have used data from clients to further your own business interests. In both cases, the data stays on your own computer and in no way passes to any third party.
@Shai: please try Deshi before arguing in such great detail about sth you do not understand.
Michael
[Edited at 2016-06-23 09:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 17:53
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| This very neatly sums up my objection | Jun 23, 2016 |
Shai Navé wrote:
The entire concept of TM-Town's matching algorithm and credit system shows a lack of understanding about translation beyond the needs of (certain type of) agencies, could be potentially abused -- and generally speaking is clearly designed as another tool in the service of the commoditizing industry. If you are happy to play along that is fine, but Deshi or not, the confidentiality (and other) issues remain the same.
Those agencies who want to use this method of choosing their business partners will no doubt find and use TM-Town directly. I'm not looking to collaborate with them. I'm hoping that a lot of those who arrive on my ProZ.com profile page will be looking for something else. And the last thing in the world that I want is for them to be hijacked at the last moment. They're often end clients or boutique translation agencies who might not understand that they are rejecting their own personal choice, based on what they've read about me, in favour of a machine's choice.
| | | | Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 19:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Kevin Dias wrote: I agree. However, translators can not make an educated decision when misinformation is being spread as fact. Shai Navé wrote:
- When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data. (false)
- If one does, by letting the program scan the TMs one is giving a third-party access to the data. (false)
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Let me just say that I disagree with Shai on this, completely, as Deshi in no way constitutes a breach of confidentiality re my client's data.
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
...having tried Deshi myself, I can tell you that's an offline tool that doesn't seem to send sensitive/confidential data to anyone.
You argue a technicality: How Deshi doesn't phone home by itself while creating that audit report. I didn't argue otherwise.
I argue that allowing a third party to audit your TMs, and even more so when it is done for marketing purposes, could be a breach of confidentiality in and of itself. If you fail to see that, I have nothing more to add.
Then, what is the point of using Deshi if you don't plan on uploading the file to TM-Town? What other offline functionality it offers besides creating that file? Therefore this is a technicality. Deshi might not transmit any data without the user's consent, but those who use it are likely to upload the audit report to TM-Town's servers themselves. How and when the data was transmitted is not the question here. This is an ethical issue, not a question of process.
This is talking in empty, superficial, and almost altruistic statements (TM-Town is a for-profit business, correct?). You might even think this is what you do, but most indicators point elsewhere.
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Also, do you ever combine the TMs of various clients in e.g. memoQ or TMLookup for concordance purposes? By your own reasoning, wouldn't this too constitute a breach?
This is not the same. None of these tools are designed to index translation related IP and use it as a marketing tool.
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
TM-Town aims to get you work as a translator, thus benefiting you as a translator.
The last part is debatable, but generally speaking this is exactly what I referred to above. TM-Town uses IP as a marketing tool (note: also for its own positioning/promotional benefit). There is more than one problem with TM-Town's concept, but if you don't see the inherit ethical problem with this. I really have nothing more to add.
[Edited at 2016-06-23 22:42 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Allow me to simplify before we get lost in technical disputes about the nuts and bolts of how TM-Town works:
With the introduction of TM town, visitors to Proz.com seeking a translator are invited to go elsewhere for (what is claimed to be) a better, more focussed selection of translators.
I and others who don't want the TM Town thing are concerned that
(a) this invitation is appearing on our profile pages.
(b) it is giving TM-towners an unfair advan... See more Allow me to simplify before we get lost in technical disputes about the nuts and bolts of how TM-Town works:
With the introduction of TM town, visitors to Proz.com seeking a translator are invited to go elsewhere for (what is claimed to be) a better, more focussed selection of translators.
I and others who don't want the TM Town thing are concerned that
(a) this invitation is appearing on our profile pages.
(b) it is giving TM-towners an unfair advantage.
It's the principle that bothers us - not the nuts and bolts. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:53
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
| let me try to make this simple | Jun 23, 2016 |
Shai Navé wrote: Kevin Dias wrote: I agree. However, translators can not make an educated decision when misinformation is being spread as fact. Shai Navé wrote:
- When using the Deshi app you still allow a third-party access to your confidential data. (false)
- If one does, by letting the program scan the TMs one is giving a third-party access to the data. (false)
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Let me just say that I disagree with Shai on this, completely, as Deshi in no way constitutes a breach of confidentiality re my client's data. Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: [note: I did not say this, someone else did]
...having tried Deshi myself, I can tell you that's an offline tool that doesn't seem to send sensitive/confidential data to anyone. You argue a technicality: How Deshi doesn't phone home by itself while creating that audit report. I didn't argue otherwise. I argue that allowing a third party to audit your TMs, and even more so what it is done for marketing purposes, could be a breach of confidentiality in and of itself. If you fail to see that, I have nothing more to add. Then, what is the point of using Deshi if you don't plan on uploading the file to TM-Town? What other offline functionality it offers besides creating that file? So this is a technicality. Deshi might not transmit any data without the user's consent, but those who use it are likely to upload the audit report to TM-Town's servers by themselves. How and when the data was transmitted is not the question here. This is a professional/ethical issue, not a question of process. This is talking in empty, superficial, and almost altruistic statements (TM-Town is a for-profit business, correct?). You might even think this is what you do, but most indicators point elsewhere. Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Also, do you ever combine the TMs of various clients in e.g. memoQ or TMLookup for concordance purposes? By your own reasoning, wouldn't this too constitute a breach? This is not the same. None of these tools are designed to index translation related IP and use it as a marketing tool. Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
TM-Town aims to get you work as a translator, thus benefiting you as a translator. The last part is debatable, but generally speaking this is exactly what I referred to above. TM-Town uses IP as a marketing tool (note: also for its own benefit). There is more than one problem with TM-Town's concept, but if you don't see the inherit ethical problem with this. I really have nothing more to add. [Edited at 2016-06-23 14:41 GMT]
Shai,
Deshi does not create an "audit report" (whatever that means) from your TM, all it does is basic term extraction, resulting in a simple text file with a short list of separate terms. That's what gets sent to TM-Town.
To simplify this so that you might understand it, … imagine that you have a 15,000-word contract. After applying Deshi to it, on your own computer, you will be left with a .txt file containing no more that sth like:
Chamber of Commerce
damage or loss
direct damage
direct damage or loss
MASTER SERVICE AGREEMENT
Non-competition clause
notional employment relationship
pressing reason
Property rights
registered letter
SERVICE AGREEMENT
temporary management services
third parties
Third Party
I used SynchroTerm to create this list, but basically Deshi does exactly the same thing: all it does is simple term extraction. How on earth can sending this txt file to TM-Town constitute a breach of any kind? In fact, I'd say sending a file like this to TM-Town is less problematic than using email to send and receive client files. But that's a whole other issue, so let's try to stick to the point.
This process in no way constitutes "allowing a third party to audit your TMs" (your words), at least not on my planet.
As regards your "argument" that using TM-Town is completely different than collecting TMs on your computer and running concordance searches on them in e.g. memoQ, I am entirely unconvinced.
Both of them, at heart, are the same thing: you as a translator take data from various clients and on your own computer and do things with this data that might benefit you as a translator. It's really quite simple. TM-Town happens to try to help you to find new clients, whereas memoQ happens to try to help you to find a specific term you are looking for. In both cases, your client's data does not leave your computer, and is therefore in no way at risk of falling into the wrong hands.
As a translator, I feel that it is my right to do whatever I damn well please with my client's data, as long as it stays on my computer and out of the wrong hands. The data is either safe, or isn't, and I argue that sending a simple list of separate terms is 100% safe.
Michael
[This post was dictated using Dragon NaturallySpeaking 13. Please excuse any typos
[Edited at 2016-06-23 15:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-06-23 15:23 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-06-23 15:29 GMT]
| | | | | Simplifying further | Jun 23, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote:
With the introduction of TM town, visitors to Proz.com seeking a translator are invited to go elsewhere
It's the principle that bothers us
You could've stopped right there as far as I'm concerned. I don't care whether the translators elsewhere are a better selection or not.
[Edited at 2016-06-23 15:45 GMT]
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