| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | The harsh reality of translation in 2016 Thread poster: Bruno Depascale
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Roni_S 
Slovakia
Local time: 00:24
Slovak to English
I have (direct) clients who understand the importance of quality translations, and although they may translate their own internal documents themselves, when it comes to sending documents to their clients they appreciate having them translated by a native speaker experienced in the field (sorry, not rehashing the native speaker issue). That being said, I also have occasional clients who are firm in their belief that anyone who spends at least 6 months in an English-speaking country will have “p... See more I have (direct) clients who understand the importance of quality translations, and although they may translate their own internal documents themselves, when it comes to sending documents to their clients they appreciate having them translated by a native speaker experienced in the field (sorry, not rehashing the native speaker issue). That being said, I also have occasional clients who are firm in their belief that anyone who spends at least 6 months in an English-speaking country will have “perfect” English and they have no need for a professional - except for a “quick” review, just to make sure the grammar is all in order.
I recently “reviewed” the text for a brochure, after having been promised that it only needed some final polishing. I re-translated the entire thing because there was no polishing the original translation, and I charged my full translation rate. Maybe they’ll get the hint?
As to the OP’s original gripe, you may not be aware that with few exceptions, €0.04 is pretty much the standard rate offered by agencies in Eastern European countries. Whether or not this is a sustainable rate is debatable, but it is the reality.
Roni ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I wholeheartedly disagree | Jun 13, 2016 |
The Misha wrote:
worrying more about the state of your own business than "the status of our profession". All those terrible indignities you are so upset about (Man! They are looking for a cheaper supplier! Oh, the horror!) simply describe the workings of any business on the market. Yes, businesses always seek to maximize profits--otherwise, why would they be in business to begin with?
Nor is there anything unprofessional about it. They do not "use you for years" and then "throw you away". They simply stop using your services at exactly the point where continuing to do so no longer makes economic sense for them in the specific situation they find themselves in. They simply move on, and so should you--to other, hopefully, better clients. This is called change, and it is inevitable.
The best thing you could do for yourself, at this point, is to realize that you are only as good as your last job, and sometimes not even a job done perfectly does the job (no pun intended). As in almost all other situations in life, it really pays to start with yourself: why would the agency want to use your services to begin with? Does your combination of rates, subject matter expertise, diligence, punctuality, reliability and negotiating skills make for a winning proposition? And if it doesn't (do yourself a favor and don't lie to yourself here), what can you do to improve it? This isn't an easy road, I know, but that's the only way a successful business works. If you can't take it, you should think of maybe getting one of those cushy regular European jobs we on this side of the pond keep hearing about. Or you could keep weeping over where "our profession" is going, of course...
You can't justify driving translation quality into the ground and translators into poverty because of combined greed and incompetence (or just one of the two). There is nothing unprofessional about it, really? And what about fraudulent advertising and all the promises that are not kept? A full team of native-only linguists — a translator and a proofreader, perhaps an editor and a reviser too, whatever — along with subject-matter consultants is what agencies promise their clients, whereas all of us know too well what reality looks like. Everything is unprofessional about that.
Prices are no longer sustainable, which means the mass market is going through a dying phase. So far it refuses to consider the consequences, but the consequences will make themselves seen, eventually.
Even now more and more translation buyers are ditching agencies altogether — and for good reason.
sailingshoes wrote:
- I've been offered a lot of revision work of badly done translations to English from Eastern European source languages where the translators are not natives in the target. It's European Commission work and it seems they're happy to have really awful translations 'polished up' by revisers who don't know the source language. The fact that the EC is adopting these practices is worthy of note.
The very idea of a random Joe English Native Speaker revising legal PL-EN with zero knowledge of either Polish language or Polish law, little knowledge of English law and average writing skills in English as his first language is laughable.
If there is anything remotely non-standard in the content and the chosen methods of expression of the original, the monolingual proofeding/editing/revision is going to be a gruelling ordeal for the non-native into-English translator. And for the original too.
[Edited at 2016-06-13 20:04 GMT]
| | | | The Misha
Local time: 18:24
Russian to English
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| You really seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this, Łukasz | Jun 14, 2016 |
[quote]Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
You can't justify driving translation quality into the ground and translators into poverty because of combined greed and incompetence (or just one of the two). There is nothing unprofessional about it, really? And what about fraudulent advertising and all the promises that are not kept? A full team of native-only linguists — a translator and a proofreader, perhaps an editor and a reviser too, whatever — along with subject-matter consultants is what agencies promise their clients, whereas all of us know too well what reality looks like. Everything is unprofessional about that.
[quote]
And it seems to affect your reading comprehension too, I am sorry to say--because I don't recall ever saying any of that stuff above. But I'll tell you more: someone else's unprofessionalism or bad business practices have precious little to do with me. I am not my brother's keeper. I am not the "translation industry's" minder (heck, there is no "translation industry," as I have said before on numerous occasions, but that's an altogether different discussion). What I do in fact take full and unconditional responsibility for is the quality of my own work and my own business conduct. Like I said above, let's all start with ourselves and see if our own respective acts need cleaning. The better job we do of minding our own business--understood literally--the better off this "industry," whatever it is, will be. This includes, among other things, knowing when to say no--rather than say "yes" and then b*tch about it.
You will excuse me, I hope, for this piece of advice, which is kind of obvious: if you don't like a prospective business counterparty, don't do any business with him or her. Whatever your reasons. No one is holding a gun to your head, right? If you can't find enough people you are willing to do business with in your current occupation, or simply cannot make enough in it to make it worth your while, then maybe it's time to move on to greener pastures. I've done it before myself, at least twice. I have two college degrees and around 30 years of experience across three different industries. I am also very good at what I do. From what I make of your frequent posts here, it looks like you are very much like me in all these respects. Now, guess what all of this means - NOTHING! Nothing at all. No one owes us a better rate or a steadier stream of jobs. This is just business, and as harsh and unfair as it may seem to be, there is no alternative to it. Unless, that is, you live in one big, happy gulag, but I have already been there and don't want to go back. I don't think you do either.
Where I do agree with you is that having a native speaker of English with no legal background or experience (let alone with no knowledge of the source language) translate or "polish" complicated legal texts is an altogether laughable proposition. I have even seen English-native lawyers who apparently knew their business producing absolute mush when translating from a different language--because they were simply bad writers.
| | | | | Just to make one thing clear... | Jun 14, 2016 |
... the Eastern European language I was asked to 'polish up' wasn't Polish - it's 'polish up' with a mall 'p'!
Anecdotally, I'm getting more work then ever without cutting my rates. 2015 and 2016 have been my best years since pre-crisis 2006. However, there are also more of these 'non-standard' offers. In other words, I too have my wonderful clients and their top rates, but what's important here is the extent to which they can be extrapolated into any general trend (i.e. the thread ... See more ... the Eastern European language I was asked to 'polish up' wasn't Polish - it's 'polish up' with a mall 'p'!
Anecdotally, I'm getting more work then ever without cutting my rates. 2015 and 2016 have been my best years since pre-crisis 2006. However, there are also more of these 'non-standard' offers. In other words, I too have my wonderful clients and their top rates, but what's important here is the extent to which they can be extrapolated into any general trend (i.e. the thread is not asking whether good and discriminating clients exist).
Personally, I'm less interested in the rights and wrongs of the situation than in simply identifying trends. I think the link I posted above is a good place to start on what may be happening to the sector.
Somebody noted the increasing number of urgent jobs being offered. I've also noted the number of 'unconfirmed' jobs on offer (which I never take). Again the internet allows company procurement offices to to try and stimulate competition between service providers very easily, even for small jobs.
[Modificato alle 2016-06-14 08:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| No one owes us a better rate or a steadier stream of jobs. | Jun 14, 2016 |
Thank you, The Misha, for this. All of it. Especially this line:
"No one owes us a better rate or a steadier stream of jobs." It's something some of us are inclined to forget sometimes.
The Misha wrote:
someone else's unprofessionalism or bad business practices have precious little to do with me. I am not my brother's keeper. I am not the "translation industry's" minder (heck, there is no "translation industry," as I have said before on numerous occasions, but that's an altogether different discussion). What I do in fact take full and unconditional responsibility for is the quality of my own work and my own business conduct. Like I said above, let's all start with ourselves and see if our own respective acts need cleaning. The better job we do of minding our own business--understood literally--the better off this "industry," whatever it is, will be. This includes, among other things, knowing when to say no--rather than say "yes" and then b*tch about it.
You will excuse me, I hope, for this piece of advice, which is kind of obvious: if you don't like a prospective business counterparty, don't do any business with him or her. Whatever your reasons. No one is holding a gun to your head, right? If you can't find enough people you are willing to do business with in your current occupation, or simply cannot make enough in it to make it worth your while, then maybe it's time to move on to greener pastures. I've done it before myself, at least twice. I have two college degrees and around 30 years of experience across three different industries. I am also very good at what I do. From what I make of your frequent posts here, it looks like you are very much like me in all these respects. Now, guess what all of this means - NOTHING! Nothing at all. No one owes us a better rate or a steadier stream of jobs. This is just business, and as harsh and unfair as it may seem to be, there is no alternative to it. Unless, that is, you live in one big, happy gulag, but I have already been there and don't want to go back. I don't think you do either.
| | | | | You wish it did | Jun 17, 2016 |
The Misha wrote:
And it seems to affect your reading comprehension too, I am sorry to say
You wish it did. Fact of the matter is you defend the misleading marketing and bad practice of agencies and fraudulent/suicidal cost-cutting by corporate managers.
Fiona Grace Peterson wrote:
"No one owes us a better rate or a steadier stream of jobs."
Correct, no one does. But how does that, again, excuse what they do?
[Edited at 2016-06-17 17:26 GMT]
| | | | | Sneaky about rates | Jun 17, 2016 |
Is this a new trend or have I just not come across it?
Twice now I agreed a rate with an agency, and once I had taken a larger project, I had the go ahead and was told that they will send the PO later. When I received the PO they had applied their very own harsh CAT discounts which were not mentioned before.
They said that these are their standard discounts (!?), but they did adjust it as it had not been discussed.
Very annoying way to do business.
| | | | Bruno Depascale
Italy
Local time: 00:24
Member (2009)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | same thing happened to me | Jun 17, 2016 |
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Is this a new trend or have I just not come across it?
Twice now I agreed a rate with an agency, and once I had taken a larger project, I had the go ahead and was told that they will send the PO later. When I received the PO they had applied their very own harsh CAT discounts which were not mentioned before.
They said that these are their standard discounts (!?), but they did adjust it as it had not been discussed.
Very annoying way to do business.
I agreed a rate and then I discovered they applied unrealistic cat tool discounts.
Then I agreed a slightly higher rate (+ 0,01 usd) to partially compensate such discounts..
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I gained $100 after the adjustment!!
| | | | Huw Watkins
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:24
Member (2005)
Italian to English
+ ...
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Wow, now that is a truly disturbing website. You should have prefaced your post with trigger warning  Since it's only a fiver, I think I might try out a few of these so-called professional translators for a joke. I'll basically send them a Dutch contract, or a corporate website and see what they make of it. Michael OK, so I ordered a short (1000-word) legal translation from someone on fiverr.com, for £3.97. I tried to find sth online that resembled what I myself might translate. Nothing crazy difficult, just some basic T&Cs. I would charge around £120 for it, and this person says he will do it for £3.97, within two days. Am very curious what I will receive! I'll report back here. [Edited at 2016-06-12 18:59 GMT] OK, second update: He just got back to me with this: "The cost is $5 per 500 words so the cost for this document is $10.
The additional amount is required before I deliver this order.
Regards,
XXX" Still very, very cheap, so I paid the additional $5, and am eagerly awaiting the final product. [Edited at 2016-06-12 20:09 GMT]
I'm very curious to know the outcome.
And this is a very good point that some are not taking into account I feel - maybe they contacted you because their normal suppliers locally were all busy and they needed someone for the short deadline - they basically were trying their luck? (I just ignore the email if the rate is not right. It doesn't upset me at all):
Samuel Murray wrote: Bruno Depascale wrote:
Otherwise, how would you explain job offers like this one received on a Saturday morning from an unknown agency named Cosmic Glob_ _? They are not unknown, and they pay promptly within a week of invoicing. They are also located in a part of the world where the rate they offered you is a normal rate.
And I always qualify my offer to agencies asking for a 'competitive' rate by saying this is my best rate, BUT I am willing to apply Trados discounts on that. It shows I can be flexible on the rate if I get savings in workload, but negates them knocking me down first then applying the discounts (which I find infuriating). In my experience, in a lot of the documents I translate, there are not a huge number of matches or fuzzies. When there are, I've seen it in the pharmaceutical field for example, then there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I don't charge for 100% and reps - as handling a large file for a smaller translation is always time consuming:
Gabriele Demuth wrote:
Is this a new trend or have I just not come across it?
Twice now I agreed a rate with an agency, and once I had taken a larger project, I had the go ahead and was told that they will send the PO later. When I received the PO they had applied their very own harsh CAT discounts which were not mentioned before.
They said that these are their standard discounts (!?), but they did adjust it as it had not been discussed.
Very annoying way to do business.
It's not a particularly new trend either, I've been doing this for years now.
[Edited at 2016-06-18 06:35 GMT]
| | | | | Any updates? | Jun 18, 2016 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote: Wow, now that is a truly disturbing website. You should have prefaced your post with trigger warning Since it's only a fiver, I think I might try out a few of these so-called professional translators for a joke. I'll basically send them a Dutch contract, or a corporate website and see what they make of it. Michael OK, so I ordered a short (1000-word) legal translation from someone on fiverr.com, for £3.97. I tried to find sth online that resembled what I myself might translate. Nothing crazy difficult, just some basic T&Cs. I would charge around £120 for it, and this person says he will do it for £3.97, within two days. Am very curious what I will receive! I'll report back here. [Edited at 2016-06-12 18:59 GMT] OK, second update: He just got back to me with this: "The cost is $5 per 500 words so the cost for this document is $10.
The additional amount is required before I deliver this order.
Regards,
XXX" Still very, very cheap, so I paid the additional $5, and am eagerly awaiting the final product. [Edited at 2016-06-12 20:09 GMT]
I keep checking this thread to see the outcome of your test
| | | | JaneD
Sweden
Local time: 00:24
Member (2009)
Swedish to English
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| Interested in the result too... but actually it's irrelevant | Jun 20, 2016 |
I'm interested in the result of your experiment too, Michael, but I have to say that it's largely irrelevant.
Here we are, *freelance* translators, complaining about the rates forced upon us by clients.
Er... really? You choose your own rates, you choose your own clients, you choose when you work and where.
If you're a half decent translator - and more importantly, have learned to say "No" when the project is just not suitable for any reason - then you si... See more I'm interested in the result of your experiment too, Michael, but I have to say that it's largely irrelevant.
Here we are, *freelance* translators, complaining about the rates forced upon us by clients.
Er... really? You choose your own rates, you choose your own clients, you choose when you work and where.
If you're a half decent translator - and more importantly, have learned to say "No" when the project is just not suitable for any reason - then you simply don't have to put up with working conditions that you don't like. That's the point of being a freelancer.
And if you really are accepting low paid work and your rates are dropping all the time, then YOU are doing something wrong.
*That's* the harsh reality of translation in 2016. ▲ Collapse
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| There are different markets | Jun 20, 2016 |
As has been discussed here before, there are different translation markets, all claim to be professional and deliver quality, but there seems to be a big difference in price and business conduct.
At the low end agencies/clients treat the translator like a day labourer who should be grateful for every penny with very poor conditions and rates. At the other end is translation as a profession with experienced professionals that have great subject knowledge in their area.
O... See more As has been discussed here before, there are different translation markets, all claim to be professional and deliver quality, but there seems to be a big difference in price and business conduct.
At the low end agencies/clients treat the translator like a day labourer who should be grateful for every penny with very poor conditions and rates. At the other end is translation as a profession with experienced professionals that have great subject knowledge in their area.
One just needs to find their place and ignore the bottom end. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:24
Member (2008)
Italian to English
It seems to me that the manufacturers of these software applications have been marketing them heavily to the translating agencies, and have convinced them that this is the way forward. They do not seem to have spoken to any translators!
In my opinion the insistence by translating agencies on the adoption of these programmes is just a turn-off for translators, who will take their skills and abilities elsewhere.
| | | | Bruno Depascale
Italy
Local time: 00:24
Member (2009)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | online invoicing systems | Jun 20, 2016 |
Tom in London wrote:
It seems to me that the manufacturers of these software applications have been marketing them heavily to the translating agencies, and have convinced them that this is the way forward. They do not seem to have spoken to any translators!
In my opinion the insistence by translating agencies on the adoption of these programmes is just a turn-off for translators, who will take their skills and abilities elsewhere.
And what about online invoicing systems? To me it happened more than once that some POs mysteriously disappeared from the "faultless" invoicing system of some agencies..So I had to spend hours exchanging email with them in order to fix the situation..
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