| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | A labour of love? Thread poster: Terry Richards
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Allison Wright (X) 
Portugal
Local time: 07:51
| I have other skills too | Mar 26, 2012 |
I realise my poll contribution does not cover the full issues ("Translation is my life, etc.).
I have other skills from which I have in the past, and could still, derive gainful employment. For many years, I was a part-time freelance translator with a variety of full-time jobs. Not a single one of them, no matter how lucrative, ever gave me as much satisfaction as translation does.
My tagline on Proz used to be "happiest when translating", and this is true, despite my ... See more I realise my poll contribution does not cover the full issues ("Translation is my life, etc.).
I have other skills from which I have in the past, and could still, derive gainful employment. For many years, I was a part-time freelance translator with a variety of full-time jobs. Not a single one of them, no matter how lucrative, ever gave me as much satisfaction as translation does.
My tagline on Proz used to be "happiest when translating", and this is true, despite my having changed the tagline. Will I work for low rates? No. If I earn a better rate on a job, does that job get "more love"? No. The passion to produce the best possible translation remains the same, irrespective of the reason I accepted the job. Do I enjoy some translations more than others? Of course I do; we all have our preferences. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Love is a possible name for it | Mar 26, 2012 |
Thank you all for all your thoughts, they always brighten my day! I think love is a PLUS in any profession and I agree fully with Edward Vreeburg: how many parents wished that their children become translators? We all have chosen this for some reason, I for example because I loved languages and the practical side of it: I found it is so practice-oriented, even beginning with university studies, I felt that what I study is not just a theory, but something I will be able to convert into practice a... See more Thank you all for all your thoughts, they always brighten my day! I think love is a PLUS in any profession and I agree fully with Edward Vreeburg: how many parents wished that their children become translators? We all have chosen this for some reason, I for example because I loved languages and the practical side of it: I found it is so practice-oriented, even beginning with university studies, I felt that what I study is not just a theory, but something I will be able to convert into practice and use. In the original poll somebody stated that people choose and stay in this profession for different reasons and I think this is true. Nevertheless, being a good translator does not so much depend on the reason of each one’s choice, but on other factors, one of them being precisely this love or passion we are talking about. The problem is that this should not influence our business behaviors, but it does…
I don’t understand why loving your profession has to make you accept lower rates – it should be like Opolt says, we are studying so much, trying to improve all the time, putting in our passion and our precious time, this should be rewarded somehow, no? And yes, the example provided by Bin Tiede is very descriptive and should be considered by all the people who do this on a part-time basis: if you have other earnings, better for you, this means that you should be the last person to accept very low rates.
Thank you very, very much Allison for putting into words my feelings as well. Like you said: Will I work for low rates? No. If I earn a better rate on a job, does that job get "more love"? No. The passion to produce the best possible translation remains the same, irrespective of the reason I accepted the job. Do I enjoy some translations more than others? Of course I do; we all have our preferences.
I struggle and I see the rates some people work for, the market here in Spain and the rates some people offer… Sometimes I tell my husband, I try to work as much as I can, but I simply cannot work for very low rates (here in Spain they are low anyway…). Because this would undermine my own work, destroy all my efforts and make it impossible to earn my living from translating – it would mean I have to quit forever. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
| Passion demands fair reward | Mar 26, 2012 |
Terry Richards wrote:
Of course, they are entitled to their opinion but I wonder if the problem of the ever greater squeezing of rates isn’t a direct result of this attitude. I think most people will willingly accept less pay for something they see as a calling than something they see as a job.
Personally, I suspect that rates would be a lot higher if those two percentages were reversed...
I can see the logic in this, but my own instinct and personal experience, my contact with other translators, tells that me it is simply not the case. I have met plenty of translators, people who love language and writing, and all of them without exception demand at least a reasonable income. In fact many grumble about the situation because they feel their passion and expertise does not get its just reward. At the same time I personally don't know of any true linguists who are content making peanuts.
| | | | Rebecca Davis
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
French to English
+ ...
| Look at it from a different perspective.... | Mar 26, 2012 |
For some of us, it's a job, not a calling...
Does the job have its advantages? Most certainly: I can think of few other jobs I could do from darkest nowhere, with my dog at my feet, at hours that suit me...
Am I "passionate" about it? Probably not...But then again, most people I encounter tolerate their jobs, and some actively loathe them, so I consider myself lucky.
Does not being "passionate" about translation mean that I am a bad translator? No it doesn't...
I am a pro... See more For some of us, it's a job, not a calling...
Does the job have its advantages? Most certainly: I can think of few other jobs I could do from darkest nowhere, with my dog at my feet, at hours that suit me...
Am I "passionate" about it? Probably not...But then again, most people I encounter tolerate their jobs, and some actively loathe them, so I consider myself lucky.
Does not being "passionate" about translation mean that I am a bad translator? No it doesn't...
I am a professional; I take pride in a job well done, as all professionals should do.
As a professional, I know my worth; no overriding "passion" is going to make me take a job at low rates, or force me into an uncomfortable situation with a client.
Translators are professionals, who offer a value-added service, and therefore deserve to be treated as such. "Passion" doesn't really come into it, at least in my opinion, although I'm sure others will differ... ▲ Collapse
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| That's illogical, captain | Mar 27, 2012 |
Simon Bruni wrote:
Passion demands fair reward
I can see the logic in this, but my own instinct and personal experience, my contact with other translators, tells that me it is simply not the case. I have met plenty of translators, people who love language and writing, and all of them without exception demand at least a reasonable income.
For a sec there, I thought you meant "command" and my curiosity was aroused....
In fact many grumble about the situation because they feel their passion and expertise does not get its just reward.
Ah, back to normal. Phew. Thing is, there isn't a market for passion, but there is for expertise, and indeed service and a raft of other things customers value and are prepared to pay for - they pay us money for the utility they derive from what we provide. Sadly for us, our "passion" or "joy" or any other emotion (including distain or indifference or boredom) is of no use to them and has no direct market value (indirect - probably).
Passion itself "demands" nothing whatsoever.
| | | | Simon Bruni
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2009)
Spanish to English
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Thing is, there isn't a market for passion, but there is for expertise, and indeed service and a raft of other things customers value and are prepared to pay for - they pay us money for the utility they derive from what we provide. Sadly for us, our "passion" or "joy" or any other emotion (including distain or indifference or boredom) is of no use to them and has no direct market value (indirect - probably).
Passion itself "demands" nothing whatsoever.
Translator discussions so often boil down to the semantics of the words we use! To me, passion, in a professional context (yes it's that word 'context' again!), denotes a fascination for the subject, motivation and drive, ambition, etc etc. It's not some abstract feeling of love or joy. The point I was trying to make is that, if you are truly passionate about your work, in the way I describe, it is extremely important to you that you are fairly rewarded for the product of your passion. Personally I have never met or spoken to a translator who thinks otherwise. Of course, some translators are more adept than others at securing their just reward.
[Edited at 2012-03-27 10:06 GMT]
| | | | | Some convergence | Mar 27, 2012 |
Simon Bruni wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
Thing is, there isn't a market for passion, but there is for expertise, and indeed service and a raft of other things customers value and are prepared to pay for - they pay us money for the utility they derive from what we provide. Sadly for us, our "passion" or "joy" or any other emotion (including distain or indifference or boredom) is of no use to them and has no direct market value (indirect - probably).
Passion itself "demands" nothing whatsoever. Translator discussions so often boil down to the semantics of the words we use! To me, passion, in a professional context (yes it's that word 'context' again!), denotes a fascination for the subject, motivation and drive, ambition, etc etc. It's not some abstract feeling of love or joy. The point I was trying to make is that, if you are truly passionate about your work, in the way I describe, it is extremely important to you that you are fairly rewarded for the product of your passion. Personally I have never met or spoken to a translator who thinks otherwise. Of course, some translators are more adept than others at securing their just reward.
Aye, it could well be semantics, although I'm not sure what you describe is what I would call passion. Enthusiasm, perhaps. You're starting to describe something that, while still an emotion, at least has some roots in logic, rather than the irrationality that always springs to my mind on hearing about "passion". Perhaps we should have defined our terms at the outset
Fairly rewarded for the product. Yes, but stop there. No-one wielding the chequebook cares whether it's the product of your passion, enthusiasm, ambition, drive, insomnia, constipation, time spent in prison or having your job seekers allowance withdrawn. We can't demand payment based on any of those things. Just on whether the translation is actually any use to the customer.
[Edited at 2012-03-27 12:06 GMT]
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:51
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| I love translating | Mar 27, 2012 |
For me there's no question: I'm fascinated by translating and love doing it. This is because it's a creative activity that requires literary and linguistic skill; and there's something deeply gratifying about watching a translation emerge out of one language and make its appearance in another.
I'm not sure what exactly happens in this process, although some of the greatest thinkers and translators, from Walter Benjamin to George Steiner, have written eloquently about it.
... See more For me there's no question: I'm fascinated by translating and love doing it. This is because it's a creative activity that requires literary and linguistic skill; and there's something deeply gratifying about watching a translation emerge out of one language and make its appearance in another.
I'm not sure what exactly happens in this process, although some of the greatest thinkers and translators, from Walter Benjamin to George Steiner, have written eloquently about it.
I love translation so much that I'm not entirely happy when I have nothing to translate ! Perhaps this is because I'm also an author, with several published books and hundreds of published articles, and I'm interested in language, style, and communication (even when the document to be translated is technical in nature. Technical language is really interesting).
I feel sorry for those who are only doing translation as a way of making a living.
[Edited at 2012-03-27 12:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:51
Chinese to English
| Don't overestimate how bright agencies are... | Mar 27, 2012 |
Terry asked:
" low rates are caused by "grasping, hard-nosed intermediaries" (amongst other factors). Do you suppose that they go out of their way to drive rates down or are they simply reacting to market conditions and choosing the easiest way to maintain their own incomes"
Simply reacting. If they stopped and thought about it, they would try to move up the food chain to higher value clients and better pay for translators. But good marketing and high quality service are diffi... See more Terry asked:
" low rates are caused by "grasping, hard-nosed intermediaries" (amongst other factors). Do you suppose that they go out of their way to drive rates down or are they simply reacting to market conditions and choosing the easiest way to maintain their own incomes"
Simply reacting. If they stopped and thought about it, they would try to move up the food chain to higher value clients and better pay for translators. But good marketing and high quality service are difficult, and there's usually some desperate soul out there who will do a translation for comedy prices, so they take that option. Obviously I'm not talking about all agencies here, but enough. Particularly in certain geographical areas.
On the "love" issue - I don't think the question is whether or not we love doing it, but whether we approach it professionally. As a group, we don't cultivate much mystique around translation. I like that, but it does mean that pretty much anyone who learns a language thinks they're a translator. So there is a continuous churning pool of non-professionals in the market; and we don't have many institutionalised markers to differentiate ourselves from them, so everyone looks the same to clients.
Hence I should really go and take the DipTrans. Bugger, more hard work. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Bit of a bleak perspective on parents' aspirations | Mar 27, 2012 |
Edward Vreeburg wrote:
I'm just guessing the positive side is because most people have become translators because of their own free will - I mean, how many parents hope their children will ever become a translator.... It's mostly a freelance thing, so even though we might hate our clients, accountant, colleagues or tax officer from time to time, we have all chosen to become translators.... Perhaps that 15% is just having a bad day, work inhouse or something...
===
Ed
Well, I wanted to become an interpreter at the age of 17, and my parents fully endorsed it. Why would parents not hope for their children to become qualified translators/interpretors if languages are their passion?
| | | | Terry Richards
France
Local time: 08:51
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry I've been absent after putting the cat amongst the pigeons. In the usual way, I got slammed with work and it all had the same deadline.
There are way too many posts for me to respond individually so I'll try and summarise.
But first, a bit of background. I have been successfully self-employed as a translator for 6 years now. I realise that this is a lot less than some around here but I think it’s enough to have formed some valid opinions of what I see around me.... See more Sorry I've been absent after putting the cat amongst the pigeons. In the usual way, I got slammed with work and it all had the same deadline.
There are way too many posts for me to respond individually so I'll try and summarise.
But first, a bit of background. I have been successfully self-employed as a translator for 6 years now. I realise that this is a lot less than some around here but I think it’s enough to have formed some valid opinions of what I see around me.
This is actually my third business. All three were what I would consider successful in that they put food on the table and a roof over my head for extended periods of time. None of them made me rich but that was never my objective anyway. In retrospect, maybe it should have been but that’s a story for another day. Both of my previous businesses were profitable when I shut them down and I shut them down for my own reasons and in a controlled fashion. I know I made some mistakes along the way but none were terminal and I (eventually) learned from them.
The biggest mistake with the first two was that they were both in fields that I loved and I genuinely got “joy” from doing them. In my retrospective opinion, there is nothing less conducive to success than to loose sight of the fact that you are running a business and that is all too easy to do if you are enjoying the day to day operation of it. You want the code to be super-efficient, you want the show to go on and you want the translation to be perfect and, if you have to put in more effort than you are being paid for to make that happen, you will. After a while, the customers come to expect that and there is always somebody that will do it for them.
In fact, this is what divides the amateurs from the professionals. I know these are emotive terms around here but I am using them in the strictest possible sense and without any intention to offend. An amateur does something for the love of it (in fact, the root of the word amateur is the Latin for love) whereas a professional does it for the money. I am not making any value judgements here, amateur does not mean shoddy and professional does not mean good and almost nobody fits 100% into either category. Amateur work can often be better than professional work because the profit motive is absent (or much reduced). On the other hand, professional work is more likely to be of an “appropriate” quality. It will be good enough for its purpose but no better because making it better costs time and time is money. In all honesty, how many of you have spent time fine-tuning an internal memo that only needs to be understandable?
From what I have seen, translators are there own worst enemies. If the poll results are to be trusted, 70% of us fall on the “joy” side of the line and that “joy” compensates for putting up with a lot from the customers, including downward pressure on rates. We accept that because we feel that it is outside of our control and at least we have our "joy". ▲ Collapse
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:51
Chinese to English
| Use volume to control your time | Mar 27, 2012 |
My work always seems to expand up to my deadlines. It might be just a 500 word shortie, but I can spend two days on it if I have them. The way I stop that happening is arranging a full schedule, and making sure I give enough time to my family. If I didn't have kids, I'd probably be suffering from exactly the same problem.
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| Flawed poll from the start | Mar 28, 2012 |
If I remember well, in some previous polls at Proz.com and elsewhere it resulted that the great majority of translators, perhaps 70% or even more, are women. I don't think I'm mistaken if I presume that at least 40-50% of these woman are married, their husband being the main or an equal source of household income (sometimes perhaps more, i guess). If this is true, would it be correct to conclude that such 40-50% of the entire translators community don't necessarily see their work as a "pure way ... See more If I remember well, in some previous polls at Proz.com and elsewhere it resulted that the great majority of translators, perhaps 70% or even more, are women. I don't think I'm mistaken if I presume that at least 40-50% of these woman are married, their husband being the main or an equal source of household income (sometimes perhaps more, i guess). If this is true, would it be correct to conclude that such 40-50% of the entire translators community don't necessarily see their work as a "pure way of earning a living" just because, in fact, it's not the very main reason why they do this work? (But then we should also define what "earning a living" means and be certain that everybody understands it in the same way: does it just mean being able to paying the mortgage and survive or something more, or even much more according to individual standards?)
However, since this poll is rather black and white, I find it obvious that translators who do not necessarily do this work for earning a living - which is basically provided by another source of income - could only choose the first answer, the third one being quite irrelevant in my opinion. The pictured reality would not be correct, then. Perhaps it sits just in between: 50% of translators doing this job as a way of earning a living *and* to take joy in doing it?
[Edited at 2012-03-28 01:59 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Don't forget | Mar 28, 2012 |
Mario,
It might well be that all your deductions and percentages are true. I do not know how many of all the woman translators are married, but (being one of them) one thing I can tell you for sure: don’t forget that in order to make a living out of it, as well as in order to take pride in our work we had to study for many years and make great efforts to become the best translators we can, trying to feel fulfilled and self-satisfied with our work. I am sure that, even if we have ... See more Mario,
It might well be that all your deductions and percentages are true. I do not know how many of all the woman translators are married, but (being one of them) one thing I can tell you for sure: don’t forget that in order to make a living out of it, as well as in order to take pride in our work we had to study for many years and make great efforts to become the best translators we can, trying to feel fulfilled and self-satisfied with our work. I am sure that, even if we have husbands, we do not study and work so much if it is not for earning our living, but only on some kind of secondary basis … Those times are over when a man could buy a plot of land, build a house on it and maintain his family alone, show me where do you see this nowadays? There are not even any land plots available anymore.. In conclusion I think that having a husband doesn’t change anything, we have the same duties and problems, which include work & money matters.
I think if we talk about passion it is because translation is such a special type of work; I think you must love it in order to enjoy doing it, and, despite of what many say, even in order to be able to do it well. Love is a must because of the type of work involved, which demands patience & hard work, honesty & modesty (people usually don’t understand your work, how many times do I have to hear it, “you are just putting words of other people in another language, that’s not very creative and it is such a tedious work..”), it involves loosing hours to find some strange equivalences, it involves hard times and bigger or smaller problems, responsibilities…if you don’t love it I think you leave it. But, as always, the spectrum is very large and there are so many (valid) points of view.
Thanks for all your thoughts again,
Agnes
[Edited at 2012-03-28 17:07 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jean Lachaud
United States
Local time: 02:51
English to French
+ ...
| There we go again | Mar 28, 2012 |
Talking of "love" applies to a hobby.
Others talk about a business.
There lies the difference.
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