| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | I have doubts (on ethical grounds) about taking on a certain assignment Thread poster: Aleksandra Mazur-Bryla
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Xenoglossy
Local time: 22:23
English to Spanish
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Imagine that you are a female translator, and then a female client ask you to translate some conversations in which her boyfriend is supposedly cheating on her. Would you translate it? Of course you would, you won't be asking anything on this forum, you won't be making all this unnecessary drama. So don't pretend about being ethical, moral, bla bla bla, that's all a mumbo jumbo.
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AGV wrote:
Imagine that you are a female translator, and then a female client ask you to translate some conversations in which her boyfriend is supposedly cheating on her. Would you translate it? Of course you would, you won't be asking anything on this forum, you won't be making all this unnecessary drama. So don't pretend about being ethical, moral, bla bla bla, that's all a mumbo jumbo.
Before making such sweeping conclusions and writing in such a judgmental manner, please consider the broader context, and all the comments made in this thread. Until now, the discussion went in a polite and professional manner, even when disagreements were apparent.
I find your comment totally out of place, and borderline misogynistic.
(Edited for a typo.)
[Módosítva: 2012-03-23 15:36 GMT]
| | | | Ramesh Bhatt 
Nepal
Local time: 02:08
Member (2007)
English to Tibetan
+ ...
| The Crux of the Matter | Mar 24, 2012 |
Hi All!
Thanks to you all that have given so much of thought and time to the problem and produced such an excellent presentation and food for thought.
Permit me, however, to point out a critical appreciation of your assumptions and thoughts.
Not only the translators, but almost all professionals in all occupations face the similar dilemma.
And in order to avoid writing here a long treatise over the subject, I would like to ask you all:
... See more Hi All!
Thanks to you all that have given so much of thought and time to the problem and produced such an excellent presentation and food for thought.
Permit me, however, to point out a critical appreciation of your assumptions and thoughts.
Not only the translators, but almost all professionals in all occupations face the similar dilemma.
And in order to avoid writing here a long treatise over the subject, I would like to ask you all:
Is everything well, otherwise, with the world we live in? For it seems to me that you all assume so.
Is there any space for real human beings to live in this world?
Is it justified that, for example, billions of people should still be uneducated in the current world, when the men of great learning have been living in the very world for more than two thousand years now?
Thousands of such questions can be asked.
Long ago, in CE 1848, two great thinkers put it down as follows:
"The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe. It converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its wage-laborers." ▲ Collapse
| | | | Valerie35 (X)
Local time: 22:23
German to English
Ty Kendall wrote:
You only risk venturing into the realms of unprofessionalism when you start to proselytize your own personal ethics.
I think that's the point I was trying to get across.
Maybe with the addition of just being a little bit tired of hearing about how wonderful some people are with their ethics - whether it's true or not it's going to get smeared into your face.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A professional can't be in doubt | Mar 26, 2012 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
It helps you to have doubts...
Dear Attila,
That is exactly the point. A professional by definition can't have doubts. A professional is a person who knows what has to be done in a certain situation. If not, he is no professional. So a professional should avoid everything that can cast doubts.
It is not a case of becoming an automaton. It is just that as society becomes more and more complex, tasks get differentiated and people specialize in different areas. The specialists (professionals) are expected to be people who know how to act correctly in a situation. They can't dilly-dally or vacillate or procrastinate. It may be as simple a task as fixing a leaking tap or as complex as dropping an atom bomb on an enemy city.
If you muddle professionalism with ethics, morality and other extraneous systems of thought, you compromise your professionalism because it brings doubts and indecision in what you are supposed to do.
Most of the discussion here is confusing the role of a good citizen with that of a professional. As a good citizen you are expected to evaluate each action on its individual merit and arrive at a conclusion in which your individual values can play a role.
But a professional comes with a predetermined set of values intrinsic to his profession, which he only has to apply. No decision-making, picking and choosing is involved in a professional act.
While it is true that the same individual doubles both as a good citizen and a professional, these are two different roles.
That is the difference and it is a crucial difference.
[Edited at 2012-03-26 04:46 GMT]
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 22:23
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Split personality | Mar 26, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote: Attila Piróth wrote:
It helps you to have doubts...
... While it is true that the same individual doubles both as a good citizen and a professional, these are two different roles. That is the difference and it is a crucial difference.
Not quite. It is impossible to separate/differentiate one from the other because this would leave you with a very artificial "split personality" approach. The (seemingly) two different aspects of acting professionally AND being a "good citizen" are inextricably linked to each other. If they were not, you would indeed become an "automaton" in your professional act(ion)s.
Quite obviously, I fully agree with Attila.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Back to basics - the process of translation | Mar 26, 2012 |
Steffen Walter wrote:
It is impossible to separate/differentiate one from the other because this would leave you with a very artificial "split personality" approach.
That may be so, but that is how it is.
It may help to recapitulate the process of translation.
A translator takes in text in one language and turns it out as nearly as possible to the original in another language. That is all that he is expected to do professionally. Everything else is extraneous and is of no importance to the person hiring him (though it may be important to the translator, but that doesn't count).
However demeaning it may sound, or however much it may deflate our egos, as a translator, we are just hired hands doing a clearly defined task.
The text that we take in and process and turn out in another language should in no way influence us morally, ethically, sentimentally, or emotionally (that it may, is again, of little concern to our hirer).
If you make yourself available for hire, you intrinsicly accept these terms.
Again, differentiating from a situation where you make your services available for hire and a situation where you of your own free will translate something for your own pleasure or profit without the bidding of another agency may help clarify our role.
If you make yourself available for hire, you usually have to take what is offered - excepting situations where you lack the expertise, time or physical capacity to do it.
But suppose you want to translate something of your own will, then you can pick and choose and bring into play your moral values, your identity, likes and dislikes, religion, predilections, idiosyncrasies, etc. You can choose not to translate abortion-related matter, slavery-related matter, tobacco-related matter etc., or choose to do only literature, or cooking, or travel or something else.
[Edited at 2012-03-26 16:27 GMT]
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Another example | Mar 26, 2012 |
Consider that you are translating a literary piece, say a novel, and the values in it, and may be some of the content in it, conflict with your value system.
Let us say, you are translating a South African novel of the apartheid period, or an American novel which has as its subject slave-based cotton cultivation, or a novel set in the imperial-colonial setting (Kipling for example).
All these can be termed as historical pieces and many of the values in them, when viewed... See more Consider that you are translating a literary piece, say a novel, and the values in it, and may be some of the content in it, conflict with your value system.
Let us say, you are translating a South African novel of the apartheid period, or an American novel which has as its subject slave-based cotton cultivation, or a novel set in the imperial-colonial setting (Kipling for example).
All these can be termed as historical pieces and many of the values in them, when viewed from the values of our times, would be decadent, abhorrent and even downright scandalous.
How would you deal with this situation?
Would you let your personal views, or even the views of your times, interfere with the way you present your translation?
Obviously, a technically correct translation of any of the above-mentioned pieces would be one that captures verbatim the values and nuances of the original, with all the warts and scars.
The ethical dilemmas being discussed in this thread are no different from the above example. ▲ Collapse
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:23
Hebrew to English
| SELF-EMPLOYED!!! | Mar 26, 2012 |
It's a very simple concept and one which can put most the arguments in the last few posts to bed.
If you make yourself available for hire, you intrinsicly (sic) accept these terms.
This is employee mentality. If a (freelance) translator insists on thinking like this, then it's their loss. The moment you become self-employed, you can do what you want and you are free not to do what you want.
A farmer is entitled to not sell his animals to a Halal/Kosher butcher knowing how they will be killed if it doesn't sit well with him.
An architect can refuse to work on a project of a new shopping mall being built on a graveyard.
...nobody thinks any less of them, they simply go elsewhere.
As a self-employed professional, you don't have to accept any terms, you are meant to be the one setting the terms!
In fact, even as an employee you can still choose to act according to your conscience. Whether this encroaches on professionalism depends on the specific case.
If someone "hires" me, I'm not working for them, I'm working with them....and "extraneous" details which are important to me do count.
[Edited at 2012-03-26 17:59 GMT]
| | | | Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 22:23
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Your good name | Mar 26, 2012 |
Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
A translator takes in text in one language and turns it out as nearly as possible to the original in another language. That is all that he is expected to do professionally. Everything else is extraneous and is of no importance to the person hiring him (though it may be important to the translator, but that doesn't count).
However demeaning it may sound, or however much it may deflate our egos, as a translator, we are just hired hands doing a clearly defined task.
The text that we take in and process and turn out in another language should in no way influence us morally, ethically, sentimentally, or emotionally (that it may, is again, of little concern to our hirer).
Bold mine again. Once again, I disagree completely.
As a translator, I consider myself as a co-author of the text. This is not the manifestation of a bloated ego – even copyright law is clear about this. For literary texts, marketing slogans, and a technical manual alike.
"a text ... should in no way influence us morally, ethically, sentimentally, or emotionally" - says who? If the material that I am asked to translate poses any moral/ethical problems, would I help promote those ideas by transposing it into another language? Would I agree to lend my name to it? If those are important issues to me, the translator, who decides that they do not count? Anyone who says it does not simply does not respect the translator. In other words, if I do not refuse it, I have no respect for myself. And then how could I expect anyone to have?
You cannot stand behind your work with your name? Then you are not a professional. Professionalism starts with taking full responsibility for your work.
Best,
Attila
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Translator vs creative writer | Mar 27, 2012 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
As a translator, I consider myself as a co-author of the text...
That is clearly going beyond the brief of a translator. A translator doesn't create anything original. He is just a medium that transposes text in one language into another. As a medium he is not supposed to be influenced in anyway by the text he is translating, in his capacity as a translator at least, if not as a human being.
There is a difference between translation and creative writing. You don't bring in your views or ideas in translation. You do that when you are doing creative writing.
There is always the tendency to project your profession as more important than it actually is. It is only understandable, but facts don't change because of that.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | A related question | Mar 27, 2012 |
Attila Piróth wrote:
If the material that I am asked to translate poses any moral/ethical problems, would I help promote those ideas by transposing it into another language? Would I agree to lend my name to it? If those are important issues to me, the translator, who decides that they do not count?
Another angle to this issue, is to ask which of these is the most important -
- the original work
- the translator
- the translation
My answer would be, the least important entity in this trio is the translator.
The original is important because a need is being felt for it to be translated. The translation is important because the original, though important, cannot be accessed without the translation by the speakers of the target language.
Once the translation has been done, the translator has done his bit, and ceases to be of any use to anyone, unless of course the task of maintaining the translation is required.
While the original and the translation continue to have an existence and relevance beyond the process of translation, the translator does not. He is a dispensable commodity.
Hurts our ego like hell, but that is how it is .
As for the translator being a co-author of the original, try translating and claiming co-authorship to any of the Harry Potter books and you will come to know in a jiffy how much the legal system supports your claim.
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:23
Hebrew to English
| Legal protection | Mar 27, 2012 |
It might be a free-for-all in Indian law, at least in the UK & Europe the translator and their translation has rights guaranteed by law.
"a translator can only translate or adapt a work (to the extent that an adaptation is involved) with the consent of the original copyright owner. However, if this consent is granted and the translation is then produced, the work of the translator – who essentially is an author, too – is itself p... See more It might be a free-for-all in Indian law, at least in the UK & Europe the translator and their translation has rights guaranteed by law.
"a translator can only translate or adapt a work (to the extent that an adaptation is involved) with the consent of the original copyright owner. However, if this consent is granted and the translation is then produced, the work of the translator – who essentially is an author, too – is itself protected by copyright."
http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html
"Are translated works protected by copyright?
As a trade, Literary Translation operates within the framework of copyright law. An article about the UK Copyright Act can be found in The Writers' and Artists' Yearbook, published annually by A & C Black. Under the Act, a translation is an adaptation of the original foreign language work, so the translator must ensure that the owner's permission has been obtained before starting work.
It is a golden rule that a translation must be faithful to the original work but translating is still a creative process. There is a popular misconception that translating a text from one language into another is a mechanical exercise - a matter of straight conversion or even copying, yet if two translators are given the same source text, the result may be two quite different but equally valid versions in the target language. In the theatre too, we are used to seeing a succession of new translations of classic plays, proving that each translator creates something original that is specially made to 'speak' to a particular audience.
The law recognises this 'original' nature of a translation and affords copyright protection to the translation, separate from the copyright protection to which the original foreign work is entitled and also separate from the protection of someone else's translation of the same work. The translator's 'moral rights' are also protected: a translation cannot be used in a derogatory way and if the translator wishes, it must carry the translator's name when it is published. In European countries, copyright protection generally lasts until the end of the seventieth year after the death of the translator."
http://www.societyofauthors.org/translation-faqs
If you willingly sign your rights away, well......
As for Harry Potter, at least in the Hebrew versions, the translator - Gili Bar-Hillel is most definitely acknowledged, short of appearing on the cover.
[Edited at 2012-03-27 09:48 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 01:53
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Acknowledging the translator is different from coauthorship | Mar 27, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
As for Harry Potter, at least in the Hebrew versions, the translator - Gili Bar-Hillel is most definitely acknowledged, short of appearing on the front page.
Acknowledging the name of the translator is entirely different from coauthorship of the translated work.
I agree that translation involves a creative process and your argument about two different translators producing two different but equally valid versions of the original is convincing.
But the creative effort involved in original writing and translation cannot be equated.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:23
Hebrew to English
| A co-author by any other name..... | Mar 27, 2012 |
I wasn't very clear so I'll try to elucidate....
Gili Bar-Hillel doesn't appear on the cover, but she does indeed appear on the front page, not as "the translator", but in a way which almost equates her with J.K Rowling. Given that a literary translation is considered a "derivative" work, I think it's unlikely you'll see complete equality in this way. It doesn't mean there isn't a co-authorship in reality. There are also issues of marketing and PR at play.
If you read t... See more I wasn't very clear so I'll try to elucidate....
Gili Bar-Hillel doesn't appear on the cover, but she does indeed appear on the front page, not as "the translator", but in a way which almost equates her with J.K Rowling. Given that a literary translation is considered a "derivative" work, I think it's unlikely you'll see complete equality in this way. It doesn't mean there isn't a co-authorship in reality. There are also issues of marketing and PR at play.
If you read the wikipedia article of Gili Bar-Hillel you'll see that she has received her fair share of fame (and no doubt fortune) because of her translations. In her own words [talking about public interest in her] "It's ridiculous, this is something that never happens to translators" - No, but it does happen to authors, which is what she is considered as, clearly.
But the creative effort involved in original writing and translation cannot be equated.
I disagree, and I feel there's no budging either of us, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
...(Also, sorry this is majorly OFF-TOPIC).
[Edited at 2012-03-27 10:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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