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Translation Workspace / Lionbridge CAT tool
Thread poster: sasp

Claudio Porcellana (X)  Identity Verified
Italy
Napa Valley? Mar 10, 2010

luckily I live in Valle di Susa ...
LOL

Claudio


 

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:20
German to Spanish
+ ...
Translation Workspace / Lionbridge Mar 10, 2010

superuser wrote:

I would stick to the topic and leave the LionX SLA/rates/policies out by now.

I was shocked as most of you when I heard about TW, I was ready to quit my collaboration with LionX (which is the 95% of my income) but I wanted to understand more before killing myself. Reading the posts in this thread makes me think that most of you didn't follow the webinar.

First, beside the monthly 10 € subscription (which is for most of us about half an hour of work), LionX doesn't charge you for the volumes they send to translators, they only charge for volumes you work out for other agencies or for your own jobs. This is quite easy, I simply won't use TW for my own jobs and keep on using something like Trados which is far better in any case.

The concept of paying for working is not so different from buying Trados which is owned by SDL, the only difference is that Trados is far more expensive then TW.

Useless to say, this is a strategic action by LionX aimed to kill competitors who (as SDL does) sell proprietary tools. If TW works, Trados sellings will drop.

A couple of years ago I was about to start a collaboration with SDL, who asked me to buy Trados (I used an older version, they wanted me to buy the latest one)...guess what? I said No thanks for the same reason some of you are talking about in this thread. The only difference is that 108 € per year is not exactly the same as about 700 €, which is the current price for Trados...given that nobody of us use cracked versions of it.

My only concern in the future is to see how much the subscription costs will raise year by year, that could be a pin in the ass in perfect LionX style. Anyway I have a B plan too...

Bye


[Edited at 2010-03-10 17:49 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-03-10 20:12 GMT]


I guess each people takes his/her decisions in behalf of his/her way of meaning. Nothing to say and nothing to complain about this and less it if it is a high percentage of your income. I decided not to work with, as I am against to pay for my own job and that is all. If it were 95 % of my income, I neither would to kill myself...

My concerns are not so much about to pay or no to pay, but about copyrights. And you are right that Trados is far more expensive, but...how big is the Trados clients base in face of Lionsbridge TW clients one?

I guess that there is really no comparison possible for now... and I neither like Trados at all.

[Editado a las 2010-03-10 21:14 GMT]


 

David Russi  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 15:20
English to Spanish
+ ...
@superuser Mar 11, 2010

superuser wrote:

The concept of paying for working is not so different from buying Trados which is owned by SDL, the only difference is that Trados is far more expensive then TW.



In addition to that, I think you can hardly compare buying software that you can then use as you see fit, with paying a subscription for software which, besides being clunky and out of your own control, you will not be able to use at all once you stop paying the subscription... sounds like a bad deal to me.

My guess is that you are trying to justify the expense so you don't lose 95% of your income all at once; quite understandable. Personally, I find the concept of paying to work for someone quite distasteful, even if it is a small amount.


 

Cruz Losada
Spain
Local time: 23:20
English to Spanish
Principles Mar 11, 2010

David Russi wrote:

I find the concept of paying to work for someone quite distasteful, even if it is a small amount.


Precisely. Some people have mentioned here. It is something called principles or similar, it´s becoming (unless used in politics what all the semantic metamorphosis that this could imply) an old fashion word, a bit like expert pruning and some other expert and carefully done things, I guess. My plan B is carpentry, I love translating I like to believe that it is still something of the craft left of it, but a Plan B looks more and more like an advisable survival strategy.
Saying all this (and considering my current level of carpentry knowledge) I haven´t decided yet if I can afford not to work for Lionbridge. I might have to swalow this one up but even so I think it will be just another nail in the coffin and I do not find it justifiable from any possible (translator´s) point of view.


 

John Rawlins  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:20
Spanish to English
+ ...
Sourcing resources Mar 11, 2010

I have just this afternoon received an email from our friends inviting me to work on their translation workspace. The letter said they were attempting to 'source some resources'. I cannot think of a more de-humanising phrase. Such details can often tell you a lot.

 

Deborah do Carmo  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 22:20
Dutch to English
+ ...
Speaks volumes Mar 11, 2010

John Rawlins wrote:

I have just this afternoon received an email from our friends inviting me to work on their translation workspace. The letter said they were attempting to 'source some resources'. I cannot think of a more de-humanising phrase. Such details can often tell you a lot.


Yes, that phrase is one of my pet hates too.


 

Claudio Porcellana (X)  Identity Verified
Italy
de-humanising market Mar 11, 2010

the French economist Silvia Perez-Vitoria in the last Slow Food issue says:
Someone has thought that one could industrialize the nature, which cannot be treated as a field like the others, because it is based on something that is alive, with its rhythms and its logic

well, I would change a bit this claim:
Someone has thought that one could industrialize mankind, which cannot be treated as a field like the others, because it is based on something that is alive, with its r
... See more
the French economist Silvia Perez-Vitoria in the last Slow Food issue says:
Someone has thought that one could industrialize the nature, which cannot be treated as a field like the others, because it is based on something that is alive, with its rhythms and its logic

well, I would change a bit this claim:
Someone has thought that one could industrialize mankind, which cannot be treated as a field like the others, because it is based on something that is alive, with its rhythms and its logic

Claudio
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Eleftherios Kritikakis  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:20
Greek to English
+ ...
Life before living it. Mar 12, 2010

"...letter said they were attempting to 'source some resources'."

Kids at offices playing around with the words they learned in government-pumped universities, where the only method to justify the very high tuition, is to change the words.

Someone says
"I can't charge 40K per year if I just use the word "employees" or "people". But if I use "resources" that makes me look a lot more sophisticated".

It's the last refuge of people who know that they ha
... See more
"...letter said they were attempting to 'source some resources'."

Kids at offices playing around with the words they learned in government-pumped universities, where the only method to justify the very high tuition, is to change the words.

Someone says
"I can't charge 40K per year if I just use the word "employees" or "people". But if I use "resources" that makes me look a lot more sophisticated".

It's the last refuge of people who know that they have not much valuable stuff to sell, so they have it dress it up a little bit. Hence, an espresso with two ounces of low-cost milk becomes an expensive "grande latte" and sells for $4 + $1 tip. But that coffee at least is a good one and gives you some pleasure... on the contrary, every time I hear these very young office employees throwing such phrases around, it makes me feel I'm in a kindergarten.

Do you remember how we all used to like complicated sentences and fancy (but often meaningless) words when we were teenagers?

Now, imagine how many of these words were used to sell the derivatives that finally brought the western world to its knees. Now they say "we couldn't, for the life of us, understand the contracts".



Keep also in mind that everytime you hear such talk, a low price offer comes next.
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Felipe Gútiez  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:20
German to Spanish
+ ...
Making a summary Mar 12, 2010

-First. Internet speed is improving. You get more or less double speed for half the price in a period of 2 years. This trend will probably go on. In 2 years time you will probably get 100 Mb per second for 30 Dollar/month.
-Second. Computer speed is improving. Todays computers are much more quick than older ones and can improve translation speed too.
-Quality of memories is improving. You can always filter and filter and take the good translations from good translators and leave bad
... See more
-First. Internet speed is improving. You get more or less double speed for half the price in a period of 2 years. This trend will probably go on. In 2 years time you will probably get 100 Mb per second for 30 Dollar/month.
-Second. Computer speed is improving. Todays computers are much more quick than older ones and can improve translation speed too.
-Quality of memories is improving. You can always filter and filter and take the good translations from good translators and leave bad translations corrected. It is not that difficult.
-In technical translation it is not very useful to have different styles
-Online use of software is something that will happen, not just for translation software, but for every kind of software: microsoft, adobe, etc. You will not buy software, you will just buy time of use, probably together with support for use the software as soon as possible. Ten hours of dreamweaver 2,5 dollar, or something like that. Pay per use. OR you have a "mcmenu", you pay 30 dollar a month and you can use several software.

-In the not so far future there will be very, very deep changes carried out by technology, not just in translation but also in education, medicine, transport.

My advice: try to think outside the box. I know, it is difficult to have to change a way of doing things that was nice and comfortable. But the quicker you start the better you will be ready for the future.

Good translation, specialization, good style will be always interesting for clients. The question is how to market this.
A possibility: experienced translators get more money and younger translators get the knowledge from experience translators.
There must be a way of win-win.
The basic idea is: why on earth has someone to work on something that someone else has already worked and reached the solution? If this can be done through Internet, why not do it?
Another basic idea is: people are born, grow and die. New generations should start where old generations have arrived. Not just in translation, but in every field of science. Much knowledge get lost now because is not well organized.
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Cruz Losada
Spain
Local time: 23:20
English to Spanish
Language is powerful thing Mar 12, 2010

Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:


Kids at offices playing around with the words they learned in government-pumped universities, where the only method to justify the very high tuition, is to change the words.

Someone says
"I can't charge 40K per year if I just use the word "employees" or "people". But if I use "resources" that makes me look a lot more sophisticated"....



Totally agree. Language is a powerful thing. I think a whole new business language has developed as well to allow business to reach levels of ruthlessness unknown to civilised mankind until now.
It is not the same to say “ we have to get rid of some people and made the others work harder so we can make more profit” than “we need to rationalise our resources in order to meet our performance objectives”, if at this you add something like "decissions like these are not easy for anybody"or "we all need to make sacrifices" etc, etc you end up believing you are really a nice guy.
This, together with the concept that it is totally absurd to think any of this is in anyway personal (as if your working life, your profession and your economic survival had nothing to do with your persona), has got a lot to do with the kind of predicament we are in at the moment.
We (like other workers) do the actual work and They do the waffling, the problem is that it feels as if we are on the path to extinction and they are the new fittest species.


[Edited at 2010-03-12 10:03 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-03-12 10:07 GMT]


 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Empty post.

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:20
German to Spanish
+ ...
Making a summary... Mar 12, 2010

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-First. Internet speed is improving. You get more or less double speed for half the price in a period of 2 years. This trend will probably go on. In 2 years time you will probably get 100 Mb per second for 30 Dollar/month.


Really? In Spain a bad 6 MB connection from Telefónica cost between 70 and 80 euros (not dollars) a month. So, I should suspect you are speaking about your residence contry, but yo do not know facts outside there at all.

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-Second. Computer speed is improving. Todays computers are much more quick than older ones and can improve translation speed too.



OK, then translate a novel and see if it improve something other as a boring consistency. And you can not type faster as you do... Imho, it is a double edged knife. Maybe, it is useful for technical translation, but not at all for literary translation and technical translation is only a bit of the translation pie.

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-Quality of memories is improving. You can always filter and filter and take the good translations from good translators and leave bad translations corrected. It is not that difficult.


Really? Then, why some market leading translation software brands have the largest support forum at pages like ProZ (and many others) with hundred of claims of any kind a day and many translation-oldsaurus like myself stick to older software versions?

Not to say I am not against progress, but I always own the penultimate version and not last one: Today translation software creators put authentic jumbles on the market, in the confidence that human guinea pigs like us provide them of information about his incompetence for free.

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-In technical translation it is not very useful to have different styles



Why not? Do you really think that SAP (style) jargon is the same than Oracles one?
Take a deeper look.

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-Online use of software is something that will happen, not just for translation software, but for every kind of software: microsoft, adobe, etc. You will not buy software, you will just buy time of use, probably together with support for use the software as soon as possible.



Yes, it will happen if we let it happen and if it is profitable for swindlevendors. For the time being, since you may have read already in this forum, no one of the necessary premises has been fulfilled. By the way, I work for SAP trough an online interface, but it cost me just nothing, but my usual investment as freelance translator...


 

Claudio Porcellana (X)  Identity Verified
Italy
Internet speed is improving. Computer speed is improving Mar 12, 2010

and where are the advantages?

Current Internet and computer speed & performances are already exceeding the needs of average worker and translators
(men went on the moon with 2 MHz clock CPU, 2 Kwords RAM and 30 Kwords ROM)
AND
The world is already too fast for mankind: as human mind cannot be speeded up in the same way, there is no use to speed up work
AND
the growing massive use of machines, outside the physical work, will made more jobless highbrows
... See more
and where are the advantages?

Current Internet and computer speed & performances are already exceeding the needs of average worker and translators
(men went on the moon with 2 MHz clock CPU, 2 Kwords RAM and 30 Kwords ROM)
AND
The world is already too fast for mankind: as human mind cannot be speeded up in the same way, there is no use to speed up work
AND
the growing massive use of machines, outside the physical work, will made more jobless highbrows beyond agricultural workers and others.

Anyway, coming back to a translation level, if the future that some guru foretells is a light growth of work BUT a fall of rates, current consolidated translators will work more and more badly, being forced to do the double at half rates, but young translators will be even in much trouble: not exactly a bright future isnt'it?

On the contrary, mankind should slow its speed to follow the nature one that is a lot slower, so regaining the balance of his mind and safeguarding the Earth

Speed up work is only a good way to make it worse: no time for thinking!

-Quality of memories is improving
Disagree, sorry, for the same abovementioned reason, and cloud computing will make them ever worse

Claudio
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Speranza  Identity Verified

Local time: 23:20
Spanish to Russian
+ ...
Sounds familiar Mar 12, 2010

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

The basic idea is: why on earth has someone to work on something that someone else has already worked and reached the solution?


Just wondering... Are you that Microsoft guy from TAUS in disguise? The one asking why anybody should pay for something that somebody else has already paid for? Because, you know, if there's something Microsoft hates, it's charging multiple buyers for the same product.

Anyway, regardless of whether you are, you may want to know that in translation, it's not the solution, it's a solution. That holds true for entire documents and even more so for translation units that appear in different contexts. It's good to be familiar with principles like this when you are in the industry.


 

Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 17:20
Member
Spanish
+ ...
Quality decline Mar 12, 2010

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

-Quality of memories is improving. You can always filter and filter and take the good translations from good translators and leave bad translations corrected. It is not that difficult.


I agree with all the above points except this one. What I've noticed with my largest clients is how the quality of their TMs is declining at a steady pace: unproofread translations, multiple translations, massive TMs that don't receive any maintenance, no context fields, overall bad translations (erroneous, literal, lazy choice of words, etc.). I'm talking about some of the largest LSPs that I used to work for--it could be a coincidence, but I don't think it is.

About working in the cloud. The idea is to make all the processes around translation easier for the LSP/client, not the translator. The problem is how these cloud TMs work. They're not the most robust tools out there, and even though some translators might see (mostly non-professionals) that as a plus, it's not. Many of use use the most advance features of CAT Tools to improve our translations and work faster without sacrificing quality.


 
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