| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Love me tender? Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
|
|---|
I remember I have been contacted at least twice for this kind of offer, from a very well known translation company (one that also produces a very familiar software) and also never heard from them again about this.
I don't know if I can say for sure that it was the same case as the one you have described, but I would not be the least surprised, because this company is known for having made it their pride to "lower" the translation rates.
Thanks for sharing, Heinrich, an... See more I remember I have been contacted at least twice for this kind of offer, from a very well known translation company (one that also produces a very familiar software) and also never heard from them again about this.
I don't know if I can say for sure that it was the same case as the one you have described, but I would not be the least surprised, because this company is known for having made it their pride to "lower" the translation rates.
Thanks for sharing, Heinrich, and let me know if you need signatures for any complaint initiative directed at the EU about this.
Saludos,
Ivette ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 22:34
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | The latest news in this matter | Aug 29, 2006 |
I had approached in this matter my association, the Finnish sktl. Yesterday they decided to send a message to the CDT in Luxembourg inquiring about the procedure of controlling the staff changes of external providers of translation services for the EU.
I also recieved a message of Finnish MEP Alexander Stubb, who is very much involved with reports and meetings about translation and interpretation services of the EU and the parlamental control of these activities.
Alex ... See more I had approached in this matter my association, the Finnish sktl. Yesterday they decided to send a message to the CDT in Luxembourg inquiring about the procedure of controlling the staff changes of external providers of translation services for the EU.
I also recieved a message of Finnish MEP Alexander Stubb, who is very much involved with reports and meetings about translation and interpretation services of the EU and the parlamental control of these activities.
Alex sent me the fresh report about the EU interpretation services. Some figures: IN 2003 the European parliament spent 57 million Euro on interpretation services, other EU-institutions another 106 million.
The report for translation will be ready soon.
If you want to recieve regular updates in this matter please contact me directly via Proz mail.
And I would suggest everybody living in a EU-memberstate to contact his/her association in order to bring this problem to some solution.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 21:34
French to Dutch
+ ...
| Some remarks | Aug 29, 2006 |
1) Translators who are able to work for the EU, don't work anymore for half or one-third of the price of a tender.
2) Big companies also compare prices, even if there is no "tender". And translation agencies go pretty low in their bids.
For qualified translators, in the end there is no other solution than to submit to tenders and to prospect end clients.
| | | | df49f (X)
France
Local time: 21:34
| talking about the (tender) devil...! | Aug 29, 2006 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I had approached in this matter my association, the Finnish sktl. Yesterday they decided to send a message to the CDT in Luxembourg inquiring about the procedure of controlling the staff changes of external providers of translation services for the EU.
I also recieved a message of Finnish MEP Alexander Stubb, who is very much involved with reports and meetings about translation and interpretation services of the EU and the parlamental control of these activities.
Alex sent me the fresh report about the EU interpretation services. Some figures: IN 2003 the European parliament spent 57 million Euro on interpretation services, other EU-institutions another 106 million.
The report for translation will be ready soon.
If you want to recieve regular updates in this matter please contact me directly via Proz mail.
And I would suggest everybody living in a EU-memberstate to contact his/her association in order to bring this problem to some solution.
Regards
Heinrich
what do you know! there a new one of these "tender offers" posted today for all EU languages/EU contract... same old story "big potential job, send your CV and credentials and send your rates": as long as our CV is impressive, we could quote 3 €/word, they would say OK (since they have no intention to give us the work anyway), use us and our references and CV to compete and maybe win the contract... and once again we'll never hear from them again
Heinrich: good moves and good suggestion. I'll try to get the ear of someone at AIIC France - they might just be particularly interested in doing something since several names of unknowing AIIC members were picked out of the directory by an agency to build their list of supposed "regular freelancing staff" in the story I mentioned in my earlier post (though this was not EU, but a big tender nevertheless with a French public utility co.).
Let's keep each other posted on this.
stay well - df
| | |
|
|
|
NMR (X)
France
Local time: 21:34
French to Dutch
+ ...
The gas distribution tender didn't come my way, but I recently received another query for a cv which had to go in a dossier for a big French public company. It wasn't a tender, but the translation agency just wanted to prospect intensively this company, known for subcontracting most of its translations.
df49f wrote:
All we can do, is refuse to provide our references to agencies who have never worked with us before.
No references of direct clients (especially with the names of the persons who give you the jobs), no cv's (why should we? We're not looking for an in-house job) and of course no translations we did for other clients (always confidential). Even if the new agency insists and say that they "need" this information!! How about protection of individual data? (those of the translator).
This is one reason why I am not against test translations, because there must be a way to distinguish between different styles and competences, even if it is a bit ridiculous if you have a translator's diploma and several years of experience. But there are agencies who give you a test, even a paid test, at your price, work for you for some time and ask you later for a cv.
But good agencies know that tenders are a trap (after a while there is nobody anymore who is willing to work for those prices) and are not likely to ask your highly individual information.
I don't know if this is a specific French question and if it is related to French public companies. Agencies abroad never ask for my cv.
| | | | Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 21:34
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | same here - Let's put up a lobby | Sep 13, 2006 |
cant/dont need to add anything - just my SL<>EN etc pair
Feels like the first 10 minutes of yet another Judy Garland & Micki Rooney film about some country girl making it big on Broadway.I like these fairy tales (sg).
[EDIT]
On the second thought ... I am firmly convinced that this NGO called ProZ can exhibit a lot of clout. So instead of a JG&MR's "Let's put up a show" I'd say "Let's put up a lobby"- which is actually happening...
Now... See more cant/dont need to add anything - just my SL<>EN etc pair
Feels like the first 10 minutes of yet another Judy Garland & Micki Rooney film about some country girl making it big on Broadway.I like these fairy tales (sg).
[EDIT]
On the second thought ... I am firmly convinced that this NGO called ProZ can exhibit a lot of clout. So instead of a JG&MR's "Let's put up a show" I'd say "Let's put up a lobby"- which is actually happening...
Now where's those Email addresses of my gov connections in Ljubljana....
regards
Vito
[Edited at 2006-09-13 08:08] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balttext
Latvia
Local time: 22:34
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Finding out who won the tender | Sep 13, 2006 |
Well, that's not too hard to do, since the EU official bodies publish contract award notices for all tenders, even stating number of tenders received and the lower and upper margins of tender offers received, e.g:
translation and revision from German into French
Number of offers received: 11.
Name and address of economic operator to whom the contract has been awarded: See Section VI
Total final value of the contract:
Lowest offer: EUR 40/highest offer: EUR 52.
... See more Well, that's not too hard to do, since the EU official bodies publish contract award notices for all tenders, even stating number of tenders received and the lower and upper margins of tender offers received, e.g:
translation and revision from German into French
Number of offers received: 11.
Name and address of economic operator to whom the contract has been awarded: See Section VI
Total final value of the contract:
Lowest offer: EUR 40/highest offer: EUR 52.
So all we need to do is to know for which tender exactly will our data be used (not so difficult to find out if you know at least the subject area or just the language pair), and then after some time check ted.europa.eu for any updates to the particular tender, particulary the contract award notice. As soon as you see the tender going to the agency that requested your data - you have the winning cards (supposed you do want to participate in the tender). Especially considering the info provided by the colleagues regarding the changes in the team of translators used by the contractor.
Good luck and I hope this helps,
Uldis ▲ Collapse
| | | | Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 22:34
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | No so easy I'm afraid | Sep 13, 2006 |
Even if I know that agency X has won a tender, and I have send them my documents, I cannot know if they have used them in their application. And usually these offers from agencies are vague, for all kinds of fields of expertise.
And whom would you contact, if in doubt?
If you are building a bridge and have a lot of subcontracters, you can go any time to the site and look who is doing the actual work. You can control the papers of the workforce, interview them about security is... See more Even if I know that agency X has won a tender, and I have send them my documents, I cannot know if they have used them in their application. And usually these offers from agencies are vague, for all kinds of fields of expertise.
And whom would you contact, if in doubt?
If you are building a bridge and have a lot of subcontracters, you can go any time to the site and look who is doing the actual work. You can control the papers of the workforce, interview them about security issues etc. And very often these days you notice, that those chaps do not have any work permit for the country of construction, but are from country X and are paid only a fraction of what ordinary workers would get and live in sheds somewhere.
But the EU has presently no means of controlling, who does the translations. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Balttext
Latvia
Local time: 22:34
English to Latvian
+ ...
| Information and its purpose | Sep 13, 2006 |
The whole purpose of the suggested procedure is to have a strong argument in negotiations with the agency, not to have the companies punished by EU bodies. For the latter some EU-wide coordinated activities are required, of course.
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 22:34
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
| I wonder at which end the wrong things happen... | Dec 30, 2006 |
Dear colleagues,
I have read the threads and it seems I am the "mate of the fate" here too, just with one more language combination.
Just some semi-offtopic notices:
1) I made papers "into the water" for 5 EU tenders and for 3 agencies in total. When filling all these "forms" for the 1st tender, I thought these are the requirements of the agency itself and well, it appeared to me that the agency is somewhat crazy. Only later I got to understand that these c... See more Dear colleagues,
I have read the threads and it seems I am the "mate of the fate" here too, just with one more language combination.
Just some semi-offtopic notices:
1) I made papers "into the water" for 5 EU tenders and for 3 agencies in total. When filling all these "forms" for the 1st tender, I thought these are the requirements of the agency itself and well, it appeared to me that the agency is somewhat crazy. Only later I got to understand that these crazy requirements (having nothing to do with translation) are set by the EU. E.g. "an evidence that one has translated 500 pages in the area of the tender". They said I need to send my invoices sent to other clients. I said "no, this is commercial and confidential information", so they said "you can strike out the titles of the clients, prices, even project titles, and actually everything - just leave the number of pages you translated as a proof". But from the logical point - what kind of proof it can be if it is an invoice with only page numbers indicated? A complete nonsense. Another illustrative example - these "translator teams". How an agency can form a tem of translators without knowing that they will receive the job? One more example - I had to get a statement (notary-certified) that I have never been involved into criminal activities, are not bankrupt (as a free-lancer I cannot be bankrupt - can only have jobs and have money, or no jobs and no money - no other possible situations:), etc. Well, EU could include one more requirement - a positive urine test, or a negative HIV test, a statement from his/her psychiatrist, or even a testament. Who knows? Maybe the translator can suddenly die in the middle of the tender translations having no time express his/her will as to whom he/she wanted to pass the jobs after his/her death. Or, who knows, maybe the translator is a very professional one, but has a form of schizophrenia that he/she tried to hide from the "public" and this can have a serious impact on translation quality? Well, maybe rough humour, but some of the EU requirements are not more logical than these absurd comparisons.
2) Now to the topic - bureaucracy is stupid everywhere with all these formal absurds. It is understandable that it also takes a lot of time. BUT there is one thing here - WHY the agencies who requested CVs and documents from the translators for whom they offered cooperation do not even bother to send a negative reply like "Sorry, we did not win the tender because the tender commission chose other candidates with a higher level of experience, lower rate, etc. - thanks for your cooperation and assistance"? Where is a problem to send such a reply? Do not want to create consipracy theories, but there must be some reason for that.
Well, I fully agree with Vito that we should do some lobbying. EU is not an "angel" and I am not so very sure they are playing a fair game at their end (maybe just because of the dumb bureaucrats, maybe not only due to that), there are many agencies who abuse the good will of translators who prepared the documents for them. So, are the EU responsible bodies really unaware what is happening in the translation markets and how it is happening? I do not think they are blind not to see/know that. And this "practice" should be stopped somehow (at least I think so). EU and their institutions are not like private companies who can behave whatever way they want. Moreover, it is European Union, not Soviet Union, so these tenders shall be transparent and certain part of information shall be made public (to the extent it is needed for simple transparency about the tenders). What are they hiding from us?
Finally - as for these agencies who never gave a reply, I think we should join the forces and ask them for compensation. It is not for the money as such, but for the principle. And we could share information, feedback and help each other. Could be a good first step for lobbying. Yes, it takes time and effort, but let's not be like soft clay.
What others think?
Marius
[Edited at 2006-12-30 11:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 22:34
| Can't EU control output quality, if not input? (That might be more effective any way.) | Dec 30, 2006 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
But the EU has presently no means of controlling, who does the translations.
Controlling inputs -- checking who really does the job, etc. -- in translation work, would be even tougher, I imagine, than controlling inputs in construction works.
Against that, controlling output quality in translation could be much easier and less costly than controlling output quality in construction works.
In construction works, there are procedures for provisional and final acceptance, in addition to construction supervision as performed while the works continue.
Are there corresponding procedures for supervision of work-in-progress and quality control of finished work in translation?
Another question that bothers me is that it is the procurement people who deal with translation work on the side of project owners, not, for example, human resources or personnel people. Is that the best way to go about it?
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 21:34
French to Dutch
+ ...
| This is probably the way things happen | Jan 1, 2007 |
Are there corresponding procedures for supervision of work-in-progress and quality control of finished work in translation?
Another question that bothers me is that it is the procurement people who deal with translation work on the side of project owners, not, for example, human resources or personnel people. Is that the best way to go about it?
EU clearly states in its tenders that they are looking for translators/agencies with the best quality for the lowest price, so the EU translation office will clearly be supervising the results. In companies the procurement department of course cannot control quality, but I suppose they also get feedback ("please never work with this people again!!"). Therefore, the problem is not in low quality/low prices, but "reasonable" quality for "reasonable" prices. And "reasonable" for a client is not the same as "reasonable" for a translator!
For Marius: your agency never wanted you to translate for them, they only wanted your cv. You gave it, there's nothing that can be done about it and certainly you cannot ask for a fee, it was a present! The only solution is to submit yourself for a tender. (unless you signed an agreement who forbids this).
| | |
|
|
|
Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 22:34
| Reasonable *price* | Jan 2, 2007 |
NMR wrote:
".......Therefore, the problem is not in low quality/low prices, but "reasonable" quality for "reasonable" prices. And "reasonable" for a client is not the same as "reasonable" for a translator! ....."
NMR:
The figure of 50 € per hour seems to have stuck in my mind as a typical figure quoted by proz.com members. Do you find that reasonable, too high, or too low?
I am asking that question in the context of socio-economic conditions in Western Europe. Socio-economic conditions must weigh in, obviously. As you know, translation is very, very labor intensive and it takes considerable investment to become capable of doing translation with *reasonable quality* -- exactly what do you mean by *reasonable quality* any way?. Etc.
And, are you translator or client or agency, by the way?
As I like to say from time to time, if you don't understand the economics of it, then you don't understand it.
Translation work is nearly pure labor. Somebody has to pay for regeneration of labor there. Who do you think should pay for it? Client? Client and state sharing it? Client and family of student translator? Who?
And, again, what in the world do you mean by *reasonable quality*?
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
+ ...
| EU must be informed of such frauds | Jan 15, 2007 |
I had also such bad experiences with agencies and I think the EU must be informed about it because it also its (their) mistake too.
I consider that things must be changed and the bidding and selection for such projects must be made different.
Here there is an e-mail where we all can write to those who organise at the EU calls of tenders for freelance translations.
[email protected]
It could bring... See more I had also such bad experiences with agencies and I think the EU must be informed about it because it also its (their) mistake too.
I consider that things must be changed and the bidding and selection for such projects must be made different.
Here there is an e-mail where we all can write to those who organise at the EU calls of tenders for freelance translations.
[email protected]
It could bring something.
But I also wonder what do agencies win working this way? I mean if one of them really wins such a project, the truth will some time come out.
[Edited at 2007-01-15 10:57]
[Edited at 2007-01-15 10:59] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Iwona Szymaniak
Poland
Local time: 21:34
Member
English to Polish
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Best Quality? Either you or EU must be kidding | Jul 4, 2007 |
NMR wrote:
EU clearly states in its tenders that they are looking for translators/agencies with the best quality for the lowest price, so the EU translation office will clearly be supervising the results.
I doubt it. If there had been anybody supervising the results such things that I have observed since Poland's final preparations to the accession would have never taken place.
Obviously, I cannot claim I have read all the Polish versions of the EU legislation and other documents. There might be some very unique positive exceptions from the rule.
Yesterday, I started a topic about the quality of EU translations into Polish on the Polish forum. All too often, Polish versions are so far from the English ones or simply have nothing to see with their English counterparts.
There is no consistency in the terminology used. The same term may be translated in many different ways within the same document.
In effect, we get useless documents in Polish. Then our government agencies and common users of EU legislation try or strive to abide by them but can they do it effectively?
I understand that EU adopted those love-me-tender rules to ensure competition but as many other attempts of highly developed beaurocracies before, the rules have turned into their opposite, in the best case or rather got distorted in such a way that they fail to serve their purpose.
In my opinion, the practices you described above result in low quality products, i.e., translations, many of which do not even deserve to be called this way (at least the ones in my mother tongue). This practice, if continued, may lead to conflicts, arguments, misunderstanding, inability to make decisions or arrive at a compromise or settlement between members-states because every party will be reading a different text.
Perhaps Poland is already a victim. Who knows? Can be, if our "twin" Prime Minister and President are in quarrel with the rest of the EU.
I think it is a serious situation. We all know how important good communication is, especially if we have to communicate in so many languages within EU.
I really thought to send corrected translations to somebody in the Council. But does it make any sense? Will anybody want to listen, read and have a look at it?
Perhaps, you have better ideas.
Iwonka
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Love me tender? | Trados Business Manager Lite | Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio
Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.
More info » |
| | Protemos translation business management system | Create your account in minutes, and start working! 3-month trial for agencies, and free for freelancers!
The system lets you keep client/vendor database, with contacts and rates, manage projects and assign jobs to vendors, issue invoices, track payments, store and manage project files, generate business reports on turnover profit per client/manager etc.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
