| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | What to do if a direct customer approaches you behind your agency's back ... Thread poster: Sarah Downing
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Sarah Downing 
Local time: 11:04
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Thanks so far for all your interesting comments.
The agency got back to me, asking me to forward them the files and tell the end customer to deal with them. I could then make quote or the agency would and they would take EUR 0.30 a line extra for their trouble.
I have to say that I find this a bit cheeky. I go to the trouble of being honest with them and tell them about this incident and they turn round and tell me they want their cut.
I could perfectly wel... See more Thanks so far for all your interesting comments.
The agency got back to me, asking me to forward them the files and tell the end customer to deal with them. I could then make quote or the agency would and they would take EUR 0.30 a line extra for their trouble.
I have to say that I find this a bit cheeky. I go to the trouble of being honest with them and tell them about this incident and they turn round and tell me they want their cut.
I could perfectly well have gone ahead without telling them about it. Needless to say, I have not forwarded the texts to the agency - really it is up to the end customer to decide who they want to work with and I don't think that it would be right for me to forward their texts without their permission!
I basically told the end customer to contact the agency as they have obviously got my details from them, but I am not too enamoured by either of the two parties! If the agency had said no, we don't want you to work with them, I think I would have respected their decision, but it seems like they are just trying to take advantage of the situation. It feels like I have given them an inch and they are trying to take a mile.
All the best,
Sarah ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sounds right to me. | Jun 22, 2006 |
Sarah Downing wrote:
I basically told the end customer to contact the agency as they have obviously got my details from them, but I am not too enamoured by either of the two parties!
I think I would have done the same thing - now, either the agency will handle the job at their usual rate, paying you at your usual rate or the client will decide that they want to work directly with you and you take whatever you agree upon with that direct client. In the latter case, the agency is out.
Again, their own fault that they failed to protect their assets (=you, in this case) from the grasp of the client.
B
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| It's just my general impression | Jun 22, 2006 |
Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:
Why for two years, why not for one or for three? I have never heard of any such "unspoken law".
I have read about it on several forums and/or mailing lists. The most common figure is two years. However, this is just my impression and if you ever got a different impression, that's your right to tell us about it.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Then why tell them about it? | Jun 22, 2006 |
Sarah Downing wrote:
I have to say that I find this a bit cheeky. I go to the trouble of being honest with them and tell them about this incident and they turn round and tell me they want their cut.
Erm... why else would you have wanted to tell the agency about this? Surely the reason (or one of the main reasons) is so to enable the agency to have their cut, yes? If you do not believe that the agency is entitled to a cut, why do you believe the agency has the right to know about the job at all?
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Sarah Downing
Local time: 11:04
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Honesty is the best policy (or is it?) | Jun 22, 2006 |
Hi Samuel,
As I said above, I told them about it out of courtesy. As I also said, I would have also been prepared not to take on the job at all had that been their wish. Ultimately, being open in business relationships avoids nasty repercussions at a later stage.
I think this 2-year thing only really applies if I approach a customer, but if a customer approaches me that's their choice. Far be it for me to tell them how to run their business. On the other hand, I can't ... See more Hi Samuel,
As I said above, I told them about it out of courtesy. As I also said, I would have also been prepared not to take on the job at all had that been their wish. Ultimately, being open in business relationships avoids nasty repercussions at a later stage.
I think this 2-year thing only really applies if I approach a customer, but if a customer approaches me that's their choice. Far be it for me to tell them how to run their business. On the other hand, I can't stand sneakiness, so that's why I told the agency.
Each of us are individual business people, so each of us are going to have a separate stance, but it really helps to bounce ideas off colleagues and ask them for their opinions.
All the best,
Sarah ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sonja Tomaskovic (X)
Germany
Local time: 17:04
English to German
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| Without contract? | Jun 22, 2006 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
I have read about it on several forums and/or mailing lists. The most common figure is two years. However, this is just my impression and if you ever got a different impression, that's your right to tell us about it.
As long as I don't have any contract with an agency, I don't see why I should turn any client down, even if I translated something for them through an agency a couple of months ago, and certainly not if it happend two years ago.
Sonja
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 17:04
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| What about confidentiality? | Jun 22, 2006 |
Sarah Downing wrote:
As I said above, I told them about it out of courtesy.
This is just my opinion, of course, but I believe that confidentiality overrides courtesy. When a potential client approaches you, you have an obligation towards that client which is stronger than any obligation you may feel you have towards the party that previously introduced the two of you to each other. This is why I said previously, "reply to the client, but don't contact the agency".
Each of us are individual business people, so each of us are going to have a separate stance, but it really helps to bounce ideas off colleagues and ask them for their opinions.
I agree completely. We have different opinions on what constitutes unethical behaviour. Our opinions can change (as mine did, a few times, after having read alternative views and having come to better insights).
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If the clients contact me directly, by their own efforts, I could have translated a document yesterday for them via an agency - I would still accept the work being offered directly to me.
Actually, some time ago I lost a direct client, for price reasons. Then, some months after getting nothing from them, I got an internal memo to translate (not even 1,000 words!) via the agency, wanting to pay me 1/3 of what I used to get directly. So, it does work both ways.
I didn't a... See more If the clients contact me directly, by their own efforts, I could have translated a document yesterday for them via an agency - I would still accept the work being offered directly to me.
Actually, some time ago I lost a direct client, for price reasons. Then, some months after getting nothing from them, I got an internal memo to translate (not even 1,000 words!) via the agency, wanting to pay me 1/3 of what I used to get directly. So, it does work both ways.
I didn't accept the job, not due to any ethical concern - it was purely the price, as I didn't have to accept a low-paying job at that moment.
In the case being discussed here, I wouldn't have contacted the agency, as well, like Samuel mentioned. I would have told the client - "please, as you got my contacts via your relationship with agency X, I think you should refer to them". But, if the client insists, it's up to you (Sarah) to decide to accept the job or not. And I wouldn't pay the agency "a cut" for their lack of care.
In my case, if they think that working with me directly would mean a cut in the price, they might be wrong, as it will probably be the same price, if not more.
I don't mind working for agencies, but I don't like when they have the nerve to tell you that they won't even check your work, "so please deliver it double-checked" (I always do, of course, for any work, but I think it's quite cheecky on their part to admit that).
Adriana ▲ Collapse
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 17:04
German to English
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| Trust, co-operation and competition | Jun 22, 2006 |
As I see it, working for a customer, whether direct or agency, involves a certain degree of co-operation, mutual reliance and trust on both sides. These aspects form the basis of customer loyalty on the one hand and supplier loyalty on the other.
Without this co-operation, mutual reliance and trust, I think it is actually very difficult to do a good job and to provide good service in the translation business. I have a good working relationship with a number of agencies in which I fe... See more As I see it, working for a customer, whether direct or agency, involves a certain degree of co-operation, mutual reliance and trust on both sides. These aspects form the basis of customer loyalty on the one hand and supplier loyalty on the other.
Without this co-operation, mutual reliance and trust, I think it is actually very difficult to do a good job and to provide good service in the translation business. I have a good working relationship with a number of agencies in which I feel this loyalty is present on both sides. I personally would find it very difficult to square this loyalty to an agency customer of mine with the idea of competing with it for its own existing customer. This is true regardless of the form the "competition" takes, i.e. whether I were to approach the customer or vice-versa; or whether the customer were to approach me after learning my identity in the course of previous work done via the agency, or purely by coincidence.
It isn't a question of the legality. I have very rarely signed non-competition clauses, and in any case I imagine that they have little validity nowadays in most European jurisdictions. I can think of one agency with whom I have signed a two-year non-competition agreement, but if I were approached by one of its customers three years after last working for them, I would be reluctant to accept work from them, even though by the agency's own admission I would legally be quite entitled to do so.
It isn't really about ethics, either. In fact, customer loyalty and ethics may actually be in conflict with each other - as to some extent in Sarah's case. If I were in Sarah's position, I would certainly not accept work from the end customer; the question is whether I would inform the agency that I had been approached. Out of customer loyalty, I would want to, but it would arguably be a breach of professional confidence to do so. (I would certainly not forward the files to them, which I think is ethically well beyond the pale.) This is a fairly harmless case, but the conflicts of interest in some instances can be quite serious, and have serious legal repercussions.
Reading between the lines of Sarah's posts, she feels the same way as I do, and it must be disappointing for that loyalty not to be reciprocated by the agency. All I can say is that "competition" and "free trade" aren't the be-all and end-all of business. Some customers at least value a long-term working relationship and are prepared to honour it, and it's worth considering whether it's worth sacrificing that working relationship in return for a more lucrative but probably short-term opportunity. Everyone has to make their own decision in the end.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 18:04
English to Russian
| It is not a mission impossible | Jun 23, 2006 |
tectranslate wrote: - secure the contract
- find a suitable translator (especially nice during the summer holidays when we often have to spend hours chasing after ten translators to get a frappin' two-page document translated before tomorrow)
- convert files, prepare TMs, write up purchase orders, write up instructions, communicate terminological aid when needed, help the translator with software problems etc.
- proofread, edit and post-format the documents
- write the invoice and run after the end client for months to make sure we get paid while we paid your invoice already?
Regards, Benjamin
I do it all the time for my direct clients and when we work in a team we share the effort without bothering to charge each other.
I see no point in being so touchy about these simple duties, the agencies are not the pillars of this world. OTOH I do not like hysteria against agencies. There are good and bad people everywhere even among non-smokers!
Stay well
Alex
| | | | | Flawed comparison | Jun 23, 2006 |
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
I do it all the time for my direct clients and when we work in a team we share the effort without bothering to charge each other.
Apples and bananas. You're talking about a network of freelancers supporting each other. In that network, you don't demand payment because there are lots of other ways to reciprocate the favors you get. And there's nothing to be said against that, as long as everybody stays fair.
But if you'd spend all your time handling entire projects, i.e. all the steps that I mentioned and more for your colleagues who'd do the translation and pocket the pay without any form of compensation to you, you would be a good samaritan, maybe, but certainly a bad businessman.
I see no point in being so touchy about these simple duties, the agencies are not the pillars of this world.
I was just defending our existence and our right to a piece of the pie by showing that we actually do something for our money. It's good, honest work, just like translating.
Sure, some translators rather work directly for clients and have no problem marketing their services, providing extra services such as DTP work, organizing proofreaders etc. That's just fine - but if they're smart, they charge more than your average translator.
A translator who works with an agency basically outsources these tasks to the agency, and they would like to be paid for their work, just like everyone else.
OTOH I do not like hysteria against agencies. There are good and bad people everywhere even among non-smokers!
On this I wholeheartedly agree. Everybody's not the same and of course this also applies to the players in the translation business.
Have a nice weekend,
Benjamin
P.S.: Sorry for the OT rants, Sarah, but I'm all done now. (Unless somebody else wishes to challenge me, of course! )
[Edited at 2006-06-23 16:27]
| | | | Sarah Downing
Local time: 11:04
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Don't worry about going off topic ... | Jun 23, 2006 |
... Benjamin. I realised that this would be a rather controversial topic when I posted it. Posts that mention the word "agency" generally are:-)
With hindsight, I'm not sure if I would tell the agency if this happened again. Of course, I did not send them the files or disclose anything other than that the customer had contacted me. I was at a loss at what to do, so just followed my gut instinct, but as Marc says, I was rather disappointed by their reaction. I told them out of courte... See more ... Benjamin. I realised that this would be a rather controversial topic when I posted it. Posts that mention the word "agency" generally are:-)
With hindsight, I'm not sure if I would tell the agency if this happened again. Of course, I did not send them the files or disclose anything other than that the customer had contacted me. I was at a loss at what to do, so just followed my gut instinct, but as Marc says, I was rather disappointed by their reaction. I told them out of courtesy, to keep them informed - after all, I didn't want to take on the job, only to be accused at a later stage of poaching the customer.
Experience has shown that if you are not honest right from the outset, this can lead to misunderstandings and accusations at a later stage.
Now, it's up to the end customer how to react. Whether they will actually contact the agency remains debatable, but it is out of my hands and I am pretty glad about that. It was a bit too slim shady for my liking.
All the best and have a nice weekend!
Sarah ▲ Collapse
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Adrian MM. (X)
Local time: 17:04
French to English
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| Direct approach by agency's 'ex'-client | Jun 23, 2006 |
Having had a barmy agent 15 years ago keep on calling me up after his client approached me, I - of like mind with Samuel above - drafted something for this very eventuality into the UK ITI's Recommended Model Terms of Business for Commissioned Translation Work.
Go to the ITI's website www.iti.org.uk/indexMain.html and then to publications: Doc 019.
See point 26: Unfair Co... See more Having had a barmy agent 15 years ago keep on calling me up after his client approached me, I - of like mind with Samuel above - drafted something for this very eventuality into the UK ITI's Recommended Model Terms of Business for Commissioned Translation Work.
Go to the ITI's website www.iti.org.uk/indexMain.html and then to publications: Doc 019.
See point 26: Unfair Competition and the range of exceptions to purported agency claims to property in a client.
If you had become a member, Sarah, you - if using this clause - could have forestalled the situation. And Marc, I suggest you as an ITI member take another (?) look at this clause.
[Edited at 2006-06-23 16:00] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 18:04
English to Russian
tectranslate wrote: A translator who works with an agency basically outsources these tasks to the agency, and they would like to be paid for their work, just like everyone else.
Exactly my point. Basically they are partners.
Now read Proz forums and you will see that agencies are short of divine objects or "projections of hyperintelligent" (and hyper-rich) end-clients into the world of lousy freelancers. This attitude harms all. (And I think I know its origins).
Sorry for the OT rants, Sarah
Me too. To make it up for you, Sarah, I would always ask the client for his reasons and tell him that I inform the agency about our contacts (which I would definitely do). I cannot even explain why, probably I myself want to be treated in the same manner. I have never signed a NDR or non-competition, but I trust a lot of people and want to be trusted too.
Till Monday!
Alex
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The bottom line is, none of the parties involved reacted quite the way Sarah expected them to. In fact, the agency was such a good "partner" to Sarah that they simply took their cut, as if the client was copyrighted to them. No appreciation for the honesty. I've learnt long ago, through many experiences in and outside of freelancing, that people don't deserve what they cannot appreciate.
I worked with agencies where I had to proof overnight a translation I was done with, because th... See more The bottom line is, none of the parties involved reacted quite the way Sarah expected them to. In fact, the agency was such a good "partner" to Sarah that they simply took their cut, as if the client was copyrighted to them. No appreciation for the honesty. I've learnt long ago, through many experiences in and outside of freelancing, that people don't deserve what they cannot appreciate.
I worked with agencies where I had to proof overnight a translation I was done with, because the agency's client was questioning my translation (they looked up words in general dictionaries and started proofing me word by word, the client was not native - this was a rather technical human resources job). They wanted me to write comments on each sentence the client questioned, and I had to justify my translation. I was asked to do this for a 12000-word job, at 3 pm, to be delivered the morning after - FREE OF CHARGE! Needless to say, I went to bed late that night. The agency could have had the decency to charge the client at least a small fee for this, as this service was unreasonable - the client's proofer doesn't speak the language and looked it up in a dictionary, for god's sake! But no, the agency preferred to give the client a freebie to make sure they will come back - and the freebie was me. Disgusting!
Another time, the agency deduced the $40 wire transfer fee from my invoice - that was never agreed upon before.
Another time, an agency told me that if I didn't charge 7 cents per word MAXIMUM, they would have no more work for me. On ProZ - where rates are pretty low - the minimum rate for my language pair is 11 cents, and the average is higher!
The list of "fruitful partnerships" with agencies goes on and on... But they are not all bad. Some of them are actually number one - honest rates, pay on time, responsive, have a minimum fee policy and apply it even when they only need to amend one sentence. Sadly, based on my experience, and the experience of colleagues, this kind of nice agency is a minority, or shall I say, an exception.
Please do admit that agencies exist only to make money. They are not there to help freelancers find a job, or to help companies find a translator, or to help with PM. They are there to make money. I am also here to make money, although I enjoy very much what I do. But my main goal is still to make a living. Nothing wrong with that on both sides. But please don't tell me I am outsourcing the rest of the work, because if it was up to me, I would do everything on my own, without any assistance - and I am sure many of us agree. In fact, I do look for contracts with direct clients, I do spend time on QA and I would do everything on my own. The problem is, every time I approach a potential client, they always tell me the same thing: we already have an agency, thank you. So, I am sorry to say, agencies own the market. No way to make an honest buck without going through an agency. In fact, nowadays, you have to go through an agency who goes through an agency who also goes through an agency to get a contract - and the rates follow. In the end, those agencies take 3/4 of the initial price quoted to the client - much more than what I get for actually doing the job. And I also know that the quality of work causes headaches, because the translator cannot communicate directly with the client - no, NEVER, because the client belongs to the agency. This also has a tendency to slow down the work, and there are more projects delivered late. Also, many agencies pretend that they do project management, but in all honesty, how can they pretend that when most of them ask you to proofread yourself? So, most don't really manage the projects. Many merely answer the phone, quote a price and drop the project off, stating a deadline. Many don't proof, don't forward questions from the translator to the client, etc. Even if I worked for the same money on my own as with agencies, I would still prefer direct clients. At least, I would have a better chance at doing the job right the first time - and I would maybe even get a pat on the shoulder. Something Sarah would also have found pleasant...
Sorry, but when dealing with people who are only trying to make money with my work and otherwise don't even remember my name, I am not going to act otherwise either. I will not be kind to people who are not kind to me. And after all, it's business. There was no contract, well, just too bad. I am sure the agency would have said just the same if it was the other way around - especially based on their reaction to the situation. Of course, in my portfolio, there are a few exceptional agencies for whom I would go the extra mile - because they do it for me too. God bless those rare ones...
Finally, I am sorry that my earlier posting offended some people. I type fast and sometimes there are words that are left out, or ideas get crushed. What I meant was agencies as a group of people get some of their clients that way - which can mean that every one of them get some clients that way, or that some of them get some clients that way. However, even if agencies are not the pillars of this world, they do have a monopoly, you all know this. And seeing from the way many of them deal with people nowadays, I don't think I would have given a cut to that agency. Nobody had a contract, it was legally correct to take the job, the agency was careless in making the contact info accessible to the client - tells you a lot about how good they must be at PM - and finally, Sarah could even have gotten a new direct client. What happened? She gave a cut to the agency, she kind of "betrayed" the client, and she has a bad taste in her mouth. It was worth it to consider the agency as a good friend, right? NO! It's JUST business - big fish eat the little ones.
So, the rate she gets from her agency also includes playing police and spy for the agency, on top of giving them a cut on a job they would not have had otherwise? Nice!
[Edited at 2006-06-24 06:42] ▲ Collapse
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