| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Ethical/unethical Thread poster: Natalya Zelikova
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Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 18:41
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Why it is unethical to bypass an agency | May 16, 2006 |
Gianni Pastore wrote:
Why should it be unethical to accept the job? The client has chosen to bypass the agency for whatever reason, so who am I to argue with that?
Good question. I guess it just is. I can come up with a few reasons for it, and you could probably come up with a few reasons against it.
Some agencies make their freelancers sign agreements not to bypass the agency (even if the client wills it), and I think it is the generally accepted way in the industry.
The purpose of the agency is not to facilitate a business relationship between client and freelancer.
In the same way as you might accept a small job because you know the client might have a big job later on, so too might the agency accept a small job for the same reasons. They would have expended resources obtaining the client's business, and for a jobs the amount expended might be disproportionate to the size of the job. If freelancers were to grab clients directly after the first job, agencies would not be able to afford to deal with small clients, and translators would only get a few large jobs from agencies (instead of several small and medium sized jobs). Ultimately, everybody loses.
I might accept work directly from the client if I'm confident that the client is not acting out of ignorance. In the OP's case, it would appear that the client contacted the freelancer by mistake because the freelancer was the last contact that the client had with the translation service provider. Normally the agency would not allow the freelancer to contact the client directly, and this exception (because of a tight deadline) should be regarded as a vote of confidence in the freelancer's honesty and professionalism; a confidence which would be shattered if the freelancer were to bypass the agency for future contact with the client.
| | | | Richard Creech
United States
Local time: 12:41
French to English
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| As they say ... | May 16, 2006 |
no good deed goes unpunished
| | | | Javier Herrera (X)
Spanish
Gianni Pastore wrote:
Perhaps I am missing the point, but why should it be unethical to accept the job? The client has chosen to bypass the agency for whatever reason, so who am I to argue with that?
Please note: I don't work with agencies.
The agency's probably spent a huge amount of time, money and effort on marketing to find that end client. They want to keep the benefits not only for one occasion.
Many times they make us sign contracts stating we won't poach their clients. Some professional associations include a clause in their code of conduct preventing us from doing that (poaching clients).
Maybe in this case our colleague didn't sign anything or her association doesn't say anything about it, but it's a general practice. What she did is definitely ethical.
J.
| | | | Javier Herrera (X)
Spanish
Hi Natalya,
What the agency did wasn't probably unethical strictly speaking. After all, the purpose asking the end client to contact the agency is that the agency can do with them (the end client) what they want.
On the other hand, they were very rude in not thanking you at first and explaining -only when you insisted- that they'll go for the lowest bidder and not consider other facts, ie your quality and ethical behaviour.
The point is, do you deserve to be treated so rudely ... See more Hi Natalya,
What the agency did wasn't probably unethical strictly speaking. After all, the purpose asking the end client to contact the agency is that the agency can do with them (the end client) what they want.
On the other hand, they were very rude in not thanking you at first and explaining -only when you insisted- that they'll go for the lowest bidder and not consider other facts, ie your quality and ethical behaviour.
The point is, do you deserve to be treated so rudely after showing your moral integrity? You don't. Forget about that agency.
J. ▲ Collapse
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Jaroslaw Michalak
Poland
Local time: 18:41
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER | A disclaimer maybe... | May 16, 2006 |
There is one thing that you could do, but it is also dubious ethically, so I am not sure whether I would do it myself (it depends probably how angry I was with the agency ).
Since the end client knows you have done the first job for them and then gets another job from the same agency, they might be under impression that the second job was also done by you. In case it is of lower quality, it might be damaging to your r... See more There is one thing that you could do, but it is also dubious ethically, so I am not sure whether I would do it myself (it depends probably how angry I was with the agency ).
Since the end client knows you have done the first job for them and then gets another job from the same agency, they might be under impression that the second job was also done by you. In case it is of lower quality, it might be damaging to your reputation. After all, the end client might still want to recommend you to someone after the first job, even if they cannot work with you directly! Therefore, you might consider sending a disclaimer stating that somebody else did it, while maintaining that you will not work directly for the end client anyway.
Of course, if the end client makes a fuss about it with the agency and specifically demands you, the agency might not be to happy about it... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 18:41
Member (2007)
English to Italian
Samuel Murray wrote:
In the same way as you might accept a small job because you know the client might have a big job later on, so too might the agency accept a small job for the same reasons. They would have expended resources obtaining the client's business, and for a jobs the amount expended might be disproportionate to the size of the job. If freelancers were to grab clients directly after the first job, agencies would not be able to afford to deal with small clients, and translators would only get a few large jobs from agencies (instead of several small and medium sized jobs). Ultimately, everybody loses.
I fully agree with you, and I know that is HIGHLY unethical for the translator to contact the client. But I was trying to see the client's point of view. We all know how nowadays every company has tight budget to face, and if a direct client finds out that can save some money by hiring you rather than the agency (since they "accidentally" discovered that you made all the work), well what can we do about it? Ultimately, if I don't take the job, I am sure someone else will, because this is the client's will.
Of course, If I get work on a regular basis from the agency, there will be no point in accepting the job, because it would jeopardize my relationship with the agency. Maybe I am only being cynical here, but eventually we all have to make ends meet, and no agency will cry their eyes out when and if a single translator is forced out of the business because of lack of customers.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:41
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| As long as everyone plays open cards | May 16, 2006 |
Gianni Pastore wrote:
But I was trying to see the client's point of view. We all know how nowadays every company has tight budget to face, and if a direct client finds out that can save some money by hiring you rather than the agency (since they "accidentally" discovered that you made all the work), well what can we do about it?
There is merit in what you say. The agency does not have a monopoly on the client's business, and the client can hire whomever he chooses. I think that the very least a freelancer should do in such a case, is to inform the client of the "custom" that exists in the translation industry regarding clients x agencies x freelancers. The client may be unaware of it. If the client insists on using your services directly, never charge less than what you would have earned through the agency (do not undercut the agency, in other words). In fact, if you happen to know what the agency's markup is (you could always ask them), you could raise your rate by that much as an incentive to the client to use the agency instead.
Letter to the client: Although I'm willing to work for you directly, please understand that it might jeapordise my relationship with the agency if they think that I'm stealing their business by charging less money, and therefore I have decided to quote for your job at the same rate as the agency.
Letter to the agency: The client is adamant and insists that I work for him directly, with no agency involved; however, as an incentive to him not to use my services simply to save on agency's commission, I have decided to charge him the same rate as you would have charged him.
You could even suggest to the agency that they offer the client a slight discount, and encourage them to reiterate to the client the benefits of working via an agency instead of working directly with a freelancer. How the agency deals with it from there, is their problem -- you have then bent over backwards to behave ethically, and they surely have no cause for complaints (even if they lose the client).
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:41
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Disclaimers are so formal! | May 16, 2006 |
Jabberwock wrote:
Since the end client knows you have done the first job for them and then gets another job from the same agency, they might be under impression that the second job was also done by you. In case it is of lower quality, it might be damaging to your reputation.
Send an e-mail to the client thanking him for his interest, and explain to him that although you have referred him to the agency, the agency might choose to assign the job to a different translator. Tell the client that you'll follow up with him if you do get the job.
Then, regardless of whether you got the job, send the client a second e-mail a month later, asking him in a friendly manner if he had any success in finding a translator for the job. Mention it casually if you didn't get the job. Be careful not to directly or overtly solicit further work (not even from the client's associates or friends).
The agency surely can't blame you for sending a second e-mail directly to the client if that e-mail is simply a friendly attempt to discover if the client had had any luck with his project. But don't send any further e-mails to the client (even if the client writes back).
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Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 18:41
Member (2007)
English to Italian
Samuel Murray wrote:
If the client insists on using your services directly, never charge less than what you would have earned through the agency (do not undercut the agency, in other words). In fact, if you happen to know what the agency's markup is (you could always ask them), you could raise your rate by that much as an incentive to the client to use the agency instead.
I don't agree with this. You just can't charge agency rates, mainly because they are outrageously high. I just don't see the reason, my friend. If the client chooses you is *only* because this way he can save on the agency's commissions.
Of course it could also happen that he liked your work so much, but in my experience I have learnt that there are very few clients concerned about quality. Having said that, if you can guarantee enough quality, they will choose you regardless of their relationship with the agency. They don't give a damn about the agency as much as the agency gives a damn about you. The whole process has only (and ONE only) main issue: Money.
In other words, why the client should spend the same amount of money hiring someone else rather than the agency? The only reason worth for taking the risk is about (again), saving bucks. Sorry if these words sounds rude to you (or anyone else), this was not my intention, Samuel. Take care
G
| | | | Javier Herrera (X)
Spanish
| Now, I'm perplexed | May 16, 2006 |
Gianni Pastore wrote:
I don't agree with this. You just can't charge agency rates, mainly because they are outrageously high. I just don't see the reason, my friend. If the client chooses you is *only* because this way he can save on the agency's commissions.
Who says you can't charge an agency's rates? The client should get the same service either from an agency or a freelancer, and therefore should pay the same. Don't forget when you work with a direct client you must recruit another translator to proofread your work. Pay them for their work and the difference will be roughly -actually higher- the same as you would make for translating for the agency.
And why should a translator say these rates are outrageous? I thought we would all like to make as much money as possible.
Actually, charging less than an agency would do a lot of harm to the profession and be definitely unethical. If many end clients learn they could pay less money for the same service, they'll mainly go for those translators who dump the market and agencies will have to put their rates down to be able to compete. Obviously they will pay their translators even less and that would be a vicious circle.
J.
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 18:41
Member (2007)
English to Italian
| Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 19:41
English to Russian
The purpose of the agency is not to facilitate a business relationship between client and freelancer.
I see what you mean, Samuel, but it also reminded me of quite a few agencies
from Proz who would say that the purpose of the agency is not to facilitate the
process of translation between client and freelancer. Or is it that you meant?
Being able to find translation jobs is regarded by too many people around here
as such a remarkable feat, and many agencies think it’s all that they have to do.
The agency's probably spent a huge amount of time, money and effort on marketing to find that end client. They want to keep the benefits not only for one occasion.
I would say “huge” is a bit drastic. I would even say it is a stale story for newbies,
for even your obedient servant having been in freelance translation for a tiny bit
of time knows that the efforts are not that “huge” *unless you picked up the wrong
career* (or have a messy agency).
Forget about that agency.
J.
Fully support. But I suspect I don’t know enough about your relationship, so I would
advise you to discuss the issue with them frankly and constructively. Obviously you
cannot be praised for sending the client to the agency, in the same manner I cannot be
praised for not stealing my neighbour’s motorbike today — yours was normal professional
behaviour, nothing to brag about, is there? Try telling them that you are upset by their
silence, by the fact that they gave the job to another person and that by doing so they probably
jeopardized the end client’s confidence in them. (I prefer to think the end client was not
trying to kick the agency out of the food chain, unless I have solid proof of the opposite).
They don't give a damn about the agency as much as the agency gives a damn about you. The whole process has only (and ONE only) main issue: Money.
Very much so. However, as it has been mentioned — there are agencies and agencies,
clients and clients. I wish you, Natalia, to get a lot of good ones. They do exist. They even
look out for good translators.
Never mind it and move on.
Best of luck!
Aleksandr
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Natalya Zelikova
Poland
Local time: 18:41
English to Russian
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TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all for your inputs - it is always interesting to know different views on such situations.
I don't think I will contact the agency - don't want and don't need to.
Also not sure if I ever write anything to the end client, though I somewhat liked the idea of disclaimer
| | | | Gina W
United States
Local time: 12:41
Member (2003)
French to English
| I agree, you were the ethical one and they were not | May 27, 2006 |
I don't think it was right of them to give the job to their standard translator. Even if they have the right to do so, I don't think they should have done it. Because the other translator's rates are low? That's a lame reason besides.
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