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On never slamming the door
Thread poster: Andrew Morris

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Now you see it... Apr 19

Chris, fair point.

Today’s post spiralled off-topic with alarming alacrity and I decided to withdraw it. Baran and I are old friends and he was my student all of 30 years ago, but it got heated and we made up offline.

Still learning the weird and wonderful idiosyncrasies of this bucking bronco of a forum, which is truly in a world of its own. At times courteous and constructive, at others ferocious and feral.

Once I get to the point where I tame the bea
... See more
Chris, fair point.

Today’s post spiralled off-topic with alarming alacrity and I decided to withdraw it. Baran and I are old friends and he was my student all of 30 years ago, but it got heated and we made up offline.

Still learning the weird and wonderful idiosyncrasies of this bucking bronco of a forum, which is truly in a world of its own. At times courteous and constructive, at others ferocious and feral.

Once I get to the point where I tame the beast, or where I raise an issue and people address it and not me (as in my 3rd and 4th posts), or play the ball and not the man, then I guarantee they will remain visible in secula seculorum.

I am all for robust debate on issues, but in the context of good clean sport. Intellectual jousting, but nothing personal, which is a waste of energy, because none of us is going to change our spots.

Have a great weekend.
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DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
happens Apr 19

There are five common approaches to solve a conflict:
1) Preventing (aka “non-interference policy”);
2) Co-op (a dialogue of equal parties);
3) Compromise (aka “give-and-take”);
4) Flexibility (rarely useful, often associated with a lacks in character); and the most popular–
5) Competition (most popular aka “Do or die for I’m always right no matter what!”).

Shortly, the problem is–besides a mere diversion–at least one party (A) canno
... See more
There are five common approaches to solve a conflict:
1) Preventing (aka “non-interference policy”);
2) Co-op (a dialogue of equal parties);
3) Compromise (aka “give-and-take”);
4) Flexibility (rarely useful, often associated with a lacks in character); and the most popular–
5) Competition (most popular aka “Do or die for I’m always right no matter what!”).

Shortly, the problem is–besides a mere diversion–at least one party (A) cannot use arguments properly and logically; (B) rejects different opinions and ideas, checking the others by probing actions; (C) uses tricks and abuses—including ultimatum and blackmail ploys; (D) pushes their way through, leaving no choice to the parties; (F) can’t or pretend they can’t manage their emotions; (G) has no idea how to save their face in the total.

As for me, I prefer to have as little as possible with people I don’t know or not sure, letting them to show themselves worthy or not. Furthermore, if a person treated somebody else badly for no reason, I assume he could do the same again–and tell him off, limiting our communication to “Hello” and “No”. I’m glad people are learning to become better and there’re still dark horses too.

Unfortunately, I’m sure that a cunning negotiator can tear a thousand of polite decent translators without biz awareness every day, treating them like dirt and dooming to “discounts” bottom-feeding. Why, it’s already happening and goes on.
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Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Conflict-free zone Apr 19

Thanks as ever for your engagement, DZiW.

My point I guess is that it's perfectly possible to discuss – and debate robustly – without involving conflict at all. Conflict to me implies posturing, ego, like billy-goats locking horns. And reasoned, nuanced discussion is its first victim.

In my incarnations on Facebook I am all about playful dialogue, a dash of irony, disagreement with a sense of humour. But when people in this forum come out clearly spoiling for a fig
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Thanks as ever for your engagement, DZiW.

My point I guess is that it's perfectly possible to discuss – and debate robustly – without involving conflict at all. Conflict to me implies posturing, ego, like billy-goats locking horns. And reasoned, nuanced discussion is its first victim.

In my incarnations on Facebook I am all about playful dialogue, a dash of irony, disagreement with a sense of humour. But when people in this forum come out clearly spoiling for a fight, then the atavistic impulses within me rise to the surface: instincts which are far, far older than the rational part of our mind.

So I'm planning to post more and more here. And will ALWAYS welcome debate, nuance, wit, wordplay, and why not, frank disagreement, just like in this very thread.

As long as we concentrate on the issues and avoid personal attacks.

But if people come out to bully, browbeat or simply lash out, and particularly if they maraud in gangs, then I will use the full force of my writing (which is just warming up) to hit back, and hard.

Preferably, though, I'd rather just get on and talk about our profession. That's what I've been hired to do. The rest is just a sideshow, a distraction, a meaningless Punch-and-Judy spectacle.
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DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Opposeme Apr 20

Andrew, you seem to be rather superstitious regarding strong words, yet even a civilized dispute or discussion means a conflict of interests, fake and true goals, ideas, temporary priorities, decisions, and so on, what is often confused with a conflict of [different] people--just a life.

Why, you can drink coffee and then cacao--if you want, or mix them, but it won't be like drinking cacao first. Having limited resources, the same goes about traveling by car, by train, by s
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Andrew, you seem to be rather superstitious regarding strong words, yet even a civilized dispute or discussion means a conflict of interests, fake and true goals, ideas, temporary priorities, decisions, and so on, what is often confused with a conflict of [different] people--just a life.

Why, you can drink coffee and then cacao--if you want, or mix them, but it won't be like drinking cacao first. Having limited resources, the same goes about traveling by car, by train, by sea, or by plane: wearing this or that, buying something, setting rates and co-oping or not--education, wedding, biz, whatever. You can buy that tasty cake now or come later and have such an option no longer, because somebody else have decided to buy it first.
Moreover, the value of things (decisions) is neither equal, nor constant.

As in the real life where stronger eat weaker because of opportunity and ability, choosing one thing is always at the expense of the others, changing or crossing them out.

How witty, gaily and playful a translator should be, when an agency tries--from a position of strength--to force or trick him into puny $.01/w minus "discounts" after 60+ days, harassing his people in the social networks?

As mentioned, a clever negotiator will gladly tear apart thousand of polite and funny specialists in any field at ease, making them accept even unfavorable terms, because it is his job--unless they are aware of such tricks, know how to run the biz, and can stand their line.

I see no use in being rude or feel anger, yet I'm ready to kick and punch anyone back, ignore unfavorable offers, and leave unreliable and unwanted people behind, burning the ships. However, there're always those who still can consider even polite and sincere words as lacking of respect and insulting, trying to reinterpret others' words and meanings. Even simply "Hello" could do, let alone nothing hurts like the truth, why?
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Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Double vision Apr 20

Ah but now we're getting down to an interesting difference. Because it seems from your some of your comments that we are in the same profession that we are viewing the same world, but through different ends of a telescope.

In ten years, I've had a handful of bad experiences: a late payer, someone who absconded, an agency that tried to rip me off, the occasional need to call in the debt collectors.

But set that against the months and years that have gone by characterise
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Ah but now we're getting down to an interesting difference. Because it seems from your some of your comments that we are in the same profession that we are viewing the same world, but through different ends of a telescope.

In ten years, I've had a handful of bad experiences: a late payer, someone who absconded, an agency that tried to rip me off, the occasional need to call in the debt collectors.

But set that against the months and years that have gone by characterised by cooperation and they pale into insignificance. I actually like my clients – some of them have become friends (direct and agency). I've met many of them face to face and I see them as colleagues, not taskmasters or slave-drivers, not competitors or exploiters.

I have a skill, they have a need (and money to pay for it), and we swap them fairly comfortably.

I don't see it as strong vs weak, dog-eat-dog, "red ocean", or any variant of that paradigm. I see it as people getting along, doing business, creating relationships.

I've experienced more conflict in my week here on the forum (partly my fault of course) than in ten years of freelancing.

So I seem to look at the world through a different lens. Call it rose-tinted if you will, but it works for me, year in year out.

Now here's a philosophical question: am I an optimist because my experience has been largely positive down the years, or has my experience been positive because I am an optimist?
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DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
definition Apr 20

Andrew, I tell you a secret: only the strong can choose, whereas others enjoy pre-selected illusions.

Meanwhile, even people speaking the same language are often at their own wavelengths, following their own goals. There're those who abuse words to trick others, also there're people who don't understand mere words, only actions and strength--the power, information, skills, and abilities/features.

That's why I'm free to choose my terms and who will be with me, lea
... See more
Andrew, I tell you a secret: only the strong can choose, whereas others enjoy pre-selected illusions.

Meanwhile, even people speaking the same language are often at their own wavelengths, following their own goals. There're those who abuse words to trick others, also there're people who don't understand mere words, only actions and strength--the power, information, skills, and abilities/features.

That's why I'm free to choose my terms and who will be with me, leaving the rest for later, if at all.

I'm not blackmouthing people who failed me or others, yet I can recommend others to avoid such, explaining the things. And when the time comes, I don't slam the door, just shut it tightly.
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Andrew Morris
 

Elizabeth Tamblin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:42
Member (2012)
French to English
@Andrew Apr 20

Andrew Morris wrote:

Chris, fair point.

Today’s post spiralled off-topic with alarming alacrity and I decided to withdraw it. Baran and I are old friends and he was my student all of 30 years ago, but it got heated and we made up offline.

Still learning the weird and wonderful idiosyncrasies of this bucking bronco of a forum, which is truly in a world of its own. At times courteous and constructive, at others ferocious and feral.

Once I get to the point where I tame the beast, or where I raise an issue and people address it and not me (as in my 3rd and 4th posts), or play the ball and not the man, then I guarantee they will remain visible in secula seculorum.

I am all for robust debate on issues, but in the context of good clean sport. Intellectual jousting, but nothing personal, which is a waste of energy, because none of us is going to change our spots.

Have a great weekend.


It seems a little unfair that you are able to get rid of embarrassing posts, when the rest of us have to live with the consequences of our posts. I would love to have a delete switch for some of mine.


 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
Why not? Apr 20

Not a bad idea, Elizabeth!

Elizabeth Tamblin
 

James Heppe-Smith  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 19:42
Member (2010)
German to English

Moderator of this forum
Slightly off-topic - deleting posts Apr 20

Elizabeth Tamblin wrote:

It seems a little unfair that you are able to get rid of embarrassing posts, when the rest of us have to live with the consequences of our posts. I would love to have a delete switch for some of mine.


Elizabeth, if you edit your post and ask me or another moderator, I would be happy to delete a post for you.

Personally, I prefer the draft post, wait and edit if required approach before venting my spleen! And please remember that even if deleted, nothing is truly gone if it has been made public beforehand.

James


Elizabeth Tamblin
Andrew Morris
 

Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:42
Romanian to English
+ ...
Not so tender Apr 20

neilmac wrote:

LOL, when the regional govt here tried to clean up its act by putting translations out to tender, my inside contacts who wanted me to keep doing the jobs for their department just told me what the lowest bids were, and said that I should ask for the same or slightly lower rates. As it happens, they were all asking for more than my original rate anyway, so I increased mine by 20% to come into line with my "competitors".

A similar scenario occurred last year with the universities. I now have to issue a pro forma estimate in advance before being assigned the work, so I raised my rates by 20% again to compensate for the extra admin. As long as I jump through the administrative hoops, they don't seem to mind that they're actually paying more than they would if they had just continued as they did in previous years.


I wouldn't go public with this Collusion or bid rigging is illegal in most jurisdictions.


Andrew Morris
Katalin Horváth McClure
 

Andrew Morris
ProZ.com team
TOPIC STARTER
You learn something every day Apr 20

Well I've learned something @James. Thanks for pointing that out!

Personally I think we all have the right to cock up now and again, and to withdraw what we've said, even withdrawing it from view. Not at the drop of a hat, but nevertheless...


 
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On never slamming the door

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