Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >
Ethics and the translation sector - no more budget demands + a new forum category please!
Thread poster: Bernhard Sulzer

Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 10:19
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Hmm? Oct 2, 2017

And hiding budget rates from certain view is like encouraging translators to stick their head in the sand. Out of sight, out of mind. Really?!

Quite true. Makes you wonder, when someone demands that budget rates be removed, what their true agenda is.


 

Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:19
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I wonder Oct 2, 2017

Lincoln Hui wrote:

And hiding budget rates from certain view is like encouraging translators to stick their head in the sand. Out of sight, out of mind. Really?!

Quite true. Makes you wonder, when someone demands that budget rates be removed, what their true agenda is.


What on earth are you implying?


 

Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 04:19
German to English
+ ...
Dear Bernhard, Oct 2, 2017

In order your fight for ethics be more fruitful, maybe you should join an appropriate group or association.
There is a LinkedIn group for IAPTI. Their statement:
IAPTI was formed on September 30, 2009, with the aim of addressing issues of concern in the translation and interpretation community, such as crowdsourcing, emphasis on price instead of quality, flooding of the translation market with non-professional translators, limitations on the extent to which we can discuss rates an
... See more
In order your fight for ethics be more fruitful, maybe you should join an appropriate group or association.
There is a LinkedIn group for IAPTI. Their statement:
IAPTI was formed on September 30, 2009, with the aim of addressing issues of concern in the translation and interpretation community, such as crowdsourcing, emphasis on price instead of quality, flooding of the translation market with non-professional translators, limitations on the extent to which we can discuss rates and the need for a strong online presence where new translators can be guided by experts that have translators' and interpreters’ interests in mind.
It's free of charge and accessible for all LinkedIn members. Moreover, you can joint the IAPTI organizatiion. Their membership fee is quite affordable.

[Edited at 2017-10-02 02:55 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-10-02 03:58 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-10-02 04:25 GMT]
Collapse


 

Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:19
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Maija Oct 2, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

In order your fight for ethics be more fruitful, mybe you should join an appropriate group or association.
There is a LinkedIn group for IAPTI. Their statement:
IAPTI was formed on September 30, 2009, with the aim of addressing issues of concern in the translation and interpretation community, such as crowdsourcing, emphasis on price instead of quality, flooding of the translation market with non-professional translators, limitations on the extent to which we can discuss rates and the need for a strong online presence where new translators can be guided by experts that have translators' and interpreters’ interests in mind.
It's free of charge and accessible for all LinkedIn members. Moreover, you can joint the IAPTI organizatiion.

[Edited at 2017-10-02 02:55 GMT]


Thank you for that information.


 

Maija Cirule  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 04:19
German to English
+ ...
It seems Oct 2, 2017

Thayenga wrote:

Fact is that all service providers on this planet (mechanics, doctors, supermarkets & co) provide their rates/prices, and it's up to the customer to accept or decline.

The only profession I've ever come across where the customer states/demands the price/rate and expects the service provider to simply accept it without as much as a sigh, is the translation industry. Frankly, I never understood why this is so, let alone, why we play along.

[Edited at 2017-10-01 08:42 GMT]


that I am an exceptionally lucky translator as within my 20+ years in translation nobody has ever forced me to accept their rates or other terms and conditions at knifepoint or at gunpoint .


 

MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:19
Member (2017)
French to English
+ ...
Take Netflix, for example... Oct 2, 2017

...since it's the topic of such a long thread in another forum and since thousands of translators around the world are scrambling to work for them, directly or indirectly.

Which is the most reasonable scenario:

-a global company issues a statement saying that they are are hiring, that these are their terms, and that this is how you can apply for the job should you find the terms acceptable;

-a global company says they are hiring and would the tens of thousa
... See more
...since it's the topic of such a long thread in another forum and since thousands of translators around the world are scrambling to work for them, directly or indirectly.

Which is the most reasonable scenario:

-a global company issues a statement saying that they are are hiring, that these are their terms, and that this is how you can apply for the job should you find the terms acceptable;

-a global company says they are hiring and would the tens of thousands of translators dying to get this job please send Netflix their terms?

There is such a thing as supply and demand, which seems to be missing from this whole argument. There are over ***25 thousand*** translators listed in my pair on this platform. We all need to use every advantage we have to remain competitive and get the job thousands of others also want. Advantages come in different shapes and forms: native speaker, translation degree, CAT tools, country of residence, field of expertise, niche market, direct clients, and, yes: being able to live well on lower rates. I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect translation to be the one field exempt from the reality of globalization. And for anyone talking about how doctors set their own rates, try googling "medical tourism."
Collapse


 

Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:19
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
+ ...
A nice and comfort business for the numerous translation institutions worldwide Oct 2, 2017

MK2010 wrote:

There is such a thing as supply and demand, which seems to be missing from this whole argument. There are over ***25 thousand*** translators listed in my pair on this platform.


A supply also artificially nourished by the numerous translation institutions at the Universities and the associated permanent posts for lecturers.
Would be a good opportunity for our translators associations to feedback these institutions about the true demand. But will they listen?


 

Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 02:19
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
I'm a pragmatist, living in the real world Oct 2, 2017

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Why are you defending such practices by agencies? You are defending them by explaining away their actions.

I would never defend the bad practices of the worst agencies, Bernhard. You know yourself that I spend a lot of time helping the more vulnerable translators among us to gain the confidence to stand up to them and refuse to allow themselves to be bullied.

@ Bernhard and Mirko: I'm just trying to insert a reality check into this thread - reality as I see it, anyway. I don't really mind whether ProZ.com bans all budget information or not. The only difference that it's going to make is that I and others will waste a little time quoting for jobs from bottom-feeding agencies - ones that we wouldn't want to land anyway as mountains of paperwork, ridiculous turnaround times, and difficulty getting timely payments are usually part of the package. But I really don't see it doing anything at all to solve the underlying problem, which needs to be seen in terms of the current global economy. If we're to continue with translation being a totally unregulated profession, then educating professional translators and talking about the good practices of the many responsible agencies and respectful clients is a better way than indulging in this continual agency-bashing.


 

Chris S  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Swedish to English
+ ...
The one change I would like to see here Oct 2, 2017

is a filter to stop low-rate agencies e-mailing me.

It strikes me as a no-brainer.

Sending a request to a 15p translator when you're a 3p agency is a waste of both parties' time.


 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Ethics Oct 2, 2017

I thought this was a thread about ethics but it turns out to be just another moanathon about low rates. Yawnzville.

 

Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:19
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
Moanathon Oct 2, 2017

No real comment to make about ProZ rates, because I don't get into them or don't reply, and no opinion on the other posts, except for your great word, Tom. You should patent it or something.

Edit: Well, now I've found it in a few places, so it's probably not yours, but a fine choice anyway.

[Edited at 2017-10-02 09:07 GMT]


 

Daniel Frisano
Switzerland
Local time: 03:19
English to Italian
+ ...
Let's talk ethics then Oct 2, 2017

I have often seen colleagues using the word "sweatshop" when working, say, at EUR 0.04 per word.

Do we realize that there are many people in the world working (but perhaps I should say "slaving") in REAL sweatshops for daily wages that are equivalent to a few dozen words translated?

Do we realize that many of us probably own items (clothing, electronics, etc.) that are made by those people? Perhaps the very same device we are using right now?


 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:19
Member (2004)
English to Italian
ah.... Oct 2, 2017

Daniel Frisano wrote:

I have often seen colleagues using the word "sweatshop" when working, say, at EUR 0.04 per word.

Do we realize that there are many people in the world working (but perhaps I should say "slaving") in REAL sweatshops for daily wages that are equivalent to a few dozen words translated?

Do we realize that many of us probably own items (clothing, electronics, etc.) that are made by those people? Perhaps the very same device we are using right now?


that's ok, then... we are indeed lucky...


 

Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 04:19
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Market economics Oct 2, 2017

There are too many of us on this market and there is hardly anything we can do about it. The only thing to do is to define one's rates and let those clients go who don't except them.

 

Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 21:19
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I am inclined to be for regulation Oct 2, 2017

Dan Lucas wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
I am sorry but it's not rocket science to realize that no lawyer will work for sweatshop rates.

Well, this is the key issue. Lawyers will not work for sweatshop rates because regulation of the industry puts a floor under fee levels, but in return only licensed lawyers can work in the profession. Buyers of legal services know that a lawyer in a developed country will have met certain minimum requirements for knowledge and competency - a significant investment in time and money.

That is not the case in translation. Literally anybody can claim to be a translator (in most countries), so abilities range from truly incompetent to very skilled. Rates vary accordingly. Ethically speaking, how can we insist on equally favourable treatment if our profession is not subject to equally stringent standards?

Dan


A fair point, and perhaps a good argument for regulation.

The market in the main language pairs is oversaturated with the marginally qualified and the unqualified. This has led to a situation in which agencies dictate low rates and onerous terms (i.e., 90-day payment, extensive preliminary paperwork, use of a particular CAT tool, and all the rest of it, including dishonest business tactics).

Extant organizations and web portals have presided over -if not enabled- this state of affairs.

There are attorneys who surely face challenges in their work. But I doubt that there are many attorneys who are routinely asked to draft mock-closing arguments free of charge, spend hours learning new software so that they might have a chance to be contracted, or offered fees in the $10-$15/hour range.

Rotten agencies and rotten translators feed off one another. The situation is out of control.

The center cannot hold.

[Edited at 2017-10-02 17:57 GMT]


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

Ethics and the translation sector - no more budget demands + a new forum category please!

Advanced search







Anycount & Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000

Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.

More info »
PerfectIt consistency checker
Faster Checking, Greater Accuracy

PerfectIt helps deliver error-free documents. It improves consistency, ensures quality and helps to enforce style guides. It’s a powerful tool for pro users, and comes with the assurance of a 30-day money back guarantee.

More info »



Forums
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search